Evidence of meeting #145 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
You are mistaken, Madam. I did not talk about that at all. My submission to that committee was that federal research funding should be abolished. It had nothing to do with anything you're talking about.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
You were saying that this theory is something that is supposed to be helpful in freedom of expression and getting the government out of freedom of expression.
My other question for you is whether you know that the government helped—
Professor of Law, Queen's University, As an Individual
No, hold on. You've accused me of something and I just want to clear it up.
Liberal
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
That's it for this witness.
I'm going to ask questions of Ms. Dufresne.
We are hearing a lot of testimony about—
Conservative
Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB
Madam Chair, you made it very clear in earlier comments that there was latitude given to the witnesses to answer, so I'd expect the same treatment.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I didn't make it clear that there was latitude. Witnesses cannot go beyond the scope of the study when they're answering. I have allowed a lot of blue-skying to go on here, and I've done that because—
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Mr. Jivani, I am speaking. When I finish, you may say what you wish to say. I will turn to you for your comment.
The witness was asked a question. He challenged the questioner on it, and she has decided not to continue the question. She is moving to someone else. I think the witness has had an opportunity to respond to the accusation by the MP.
Now, you wanted to say something, Mr. Jivani.
Conservative
Jamil Jivani Conservative Durham, ON
Yes. I think you're doing a lot of editorializing as our chair and inserting your opinion into the administration of this meeting.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
As chair, I can make sure that we stay on topic. That's my job. I don't see how the administration of government and the budget have anything to do with this, but I've allowed it—
Conservative
Jamil Jivani Conservative Durham, ON
You don't see how expanding the federal government's power over freedom of expression is relevant.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
When I'm speaking, Mr. Jivani, allow me to finish, and then I will allow you to say what you have to say. Allow me to finish.
I think there has been a lot of blue-skying going on here. We've talked about budgets and amounts of money being spent, etc. That is not on topic. The topic is about freedom of expression. That can go into all kinds of corners, and I've allowed people to do that because it is pertinent to freedom of expression. When Mr. Pardy answered about freedom of expression, I let him go into the corners he wished to go into. That's what this is about.
We're not discussing a budget here. I allowed that to happen, but I'm not going to allow it to happen again. Budgeting for the Government of Canada has nothing to do with freedom of expression. I'm going to move forward.
Ms. Dhillon, you have the floor.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Madame Dufresne, my question is for you. You were talking about how the LGBTQ community is facing much discrimination, and how these kinds of rhetoric and things that are being said negatively impact the community.
Can you talk to us a bit about how you, personally, have perceived such misinformation and hatred toward you?
Director, Legal Services, QMUNITY: BC's Queer, Trans, and Two-Spirit Resource Centre
I experience—as I think we've heard from other speakers—a reluctance to speak out and be clear about transness and trans identity, as a result of an increased attack on trans people. I think we can see this. I don't think it's a surprise coming from.... We have a rhetoric, largely born out of the United States, that trickles its way up to us.
On my flight over, I was listening to the Skrmetti decision. Basically, having our children be able to access their needed medical interventions to allow them to transition in a timely way and not forcing puberty on trans children is up for debate.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
We keep hearing people complaining about how the government is curbing freedom of expression. If the government wasn't there, do you think that we would have the possibility of same-sex marriage and that it would still not be criminal to be gay?
Director, Legal Services, QMUNITY: BC's Queer, Trans, and Two-Spirit Resource Centre
No. I think those changes needed to be legislated, obviously, and ruled on by the courts.
I would also like to note that we don't enjoy unlimited freedoms in Canada. All of our freedoms are run through a section 1 analysis of balance. I don't think the Canadian state is one where people can just say, “I have the absolute right to say whatever I want.” That's not the society that we live in, and I think that is a good thing.
I also think it's important that the state not only step in when there is very harmful hate speech, but also recognize that we have to pay for the rights that we have. If people are allowed to say hateful things, as a society and as a nation, we have to pay for the harms that then occur. We can either stop the harms or pay for them. It's a choice.