Evidence of meeting #31 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Owen Ripley  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage
Amy Awad  Senior Director, Marketplace and Legislative Policy, Department of Canadian Heritage
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore

June 6th, 2022 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Order. Good afternoon, everyone. You're stuck with me today. Madam Fry asked if I would chair today's committee, so here we are.

Welcome to meeting number 31 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, May 12, 2022, the committee is meeting in consideration of Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, November 25, 2021.

Obviously, we have been doing this long enough. I don't think I need to go over the rules for the hybrid format.

In recognition of the minister's time—we do have a 4:30 p.m. hard stop with the minister today—I will go straight to welcoming the Honourable Pablo Rodriguez, Minister of Canadian Heritage.

Mr. Minister, you have the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Honoré-Mercier Québec

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez LiberalMinister of Canadian Heritage

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Colleagues and friends, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I want to begin by thanking you for your work. I know that you have spent more than 20 hours on this study. I'd also like to thank the witnesses.

This is an extremely important bill. It has led to many, often heated debates at the committee, and that makes perfect sense.

It's a debate about the fact that we now live in a digital world and, therefore, that we need policies and legislation that are built for that digital world. Honestly, I think Bill C-11 is the way to do it.

What will Bill C‑11 change, specifically?

First, Bill C‑11 will support our artists and creators. It will foster the creation of good jobs in the cultural sector, make Canadian content more accessible and make it easier for people to find homegrown Canadian music and stories.

Second, online streaming platforms will need to contribute to Canadian culture. I think this is self-evident and extremely important.

It's long past time that the streaming platforms contribute their fair share to our culture, just as traditional broadcasters have done up to now. We have a cultural policy system that has served Canadians for decades here and around the world, but Canada and the world have changed.

The reality right now is that platforms are taking up more and more room in our lives and that an increasing number of Canadians are cancelling their cable subscriptions. In fact, over 70% of Canadians now subscribe to platforms. The industry is here to stay and is likely going to experience further growth.

Bill C‑11 is designed to ensure that our next generation of artists and creators can succeed in the digital age.

While following the debates, I heard a number of interesting ideas, such as redefining Canadian content; adding provisions to support indigenous peoples and racialized Canadians; providing more support to our cultural sector workers; and much more.

We also heard last week from a founding member of The Tragically Hip, one of Canada's most beloved bands, on why we need to do this, and why we need to do this now.

I have also heard concerns and criticism. That's normal. You know what? We need that. It's a normal discussion around a bill.

The government has been extremely clear that we have no intention of regulating what people post online, as some have claimed. While I think we have made this clear in Bill C-11, I have always said that I'm open to improving it.

As a former House leader—and Mr. Julian would know this—I know that we need to work together, particularly in a minority Parliament. I'm committed to doing that. Actually, I would say that I've been doing that since day one. But I'm also committed to passing this bill, because it's what Canada needs. It's what Canadians voted for. To be honest, all of the parties here in this room had something like this in their platform.

As we have said since the beginning, Bill C-11 is about the obligations of platforms, not users. I always say it: platforms in, users out. That's the key point. It's about bringing online broadcasters into our system. It's about creating more space for diverse voices and stories.

Decades ago, we made the choice to defend our culture. We made that choice because our stories matter a great deal to us. These stories bind us, unite us and set us apart from others.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you benefit from the system, you need to contribute to it. It's as simple as that.

This is a debate about fairness and, of course, the debate won't end here. The bill will be further debated in the House and by the Senate.

After royal assent of the bill, I will provide a policy direction to the CRTC. Once the CRTC receives the policy direction, they're going to hold public hearings and develop the regulations, as they've always done as a public interest regulator.

I'm ready to take your questions.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Thank you, Minister. You finished with 30 seconds to spare, so we'll save that time for later.

We'll start with our six-minute round. The rotation is known to this committee. We'll start with Mr. Waugh. I believe Mr. Waugh and Ms. Thomas are splitting this round.

Mr. Waugh, the floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to pick up on your last comment.

Minister, thank you for coming today, along with Mr. Ripley. It's good to see both of you again.

Will you release your policy directive today, to this committee, so that we can fully understand the impacts of the bill before we proceed ahead with this?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

We'll release it, as I mentioned in my speech, once the bill is adopted. I think the proper way to go is finishing the bill and making sure we know what's in it. We'll then be able to send it to the CRTC and there will be broad consultations.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

You wouldn't bring it to committee. What you're saying is, today you wouldn't bring it to us to have a look at your policy directive—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

First we have to adopt the bill. Based on the bill, I will draft the policy directive and the CRTC will get it.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

All right.

You said the bill is about making sure that Canadian voices are discoverable online—and that's the big one—but, so far, I don't think we've had a definition of “discoverability”.

Will you and your party support an amendment to provide a clear definition of discoverability and explain exactly how the platforms will be required to make Canadian content discoverable?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I think it's up to the committee to discuss and debate that, but for discoverability, I don't think we have to look very far to understand it. It's a simple concept.

We want to see more Canadian stories, more Canadian music and more Canadian films. It's as simple as it sounds. I think we all care about.... I'm sure, Mr. Waugh, that you care about it too, because it's part of our identity. They're our stories.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I agree. However, as you said, Canadian content does not qualify as official CanCon under the current rules, so this poses a big problem for the platforms.

Are they required to carry Canadian content, but the Canadian content they have does not count because it's outdated rules that will apply? Will you commit to ensuring that our Canadian content rules are updated at least one year in advance of implementing Bill C-11?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

As I've mentioned many times before, I will ask the CRTC—and they're fully aware of this—to update and modernize Canadian content. There are so many things that have been there forever. Just the bill we're discussing has been there for four years. I had black hair at the time.

It's time that we modernize that and many other things, and this is exactly what we're doing.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I'm going to give Ms. Thomas the chance to fill the rest of the time.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Minister, you said that this bill is going to go after platforms. Platforms are used by new media content creators. For those platforms to abide by your regulations, they will have to regulate the users. Hence, user-generated content is, in fact, captured by this bill.

Can you help me understand if that works in a different way?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

It's very simple. It's the platforms that are regulated.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

It's users who use those platforms, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

The CRTC's not interested in looking at what is in the program. Can you imagine the CRTC looking at millions or billions in a year? It's impossible. That's all it is.

It's about making sure there's more Canadian content.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Minister, is it users who use those platforms? Who uses those platforms? Do animals use those platforms? Do people use those platforms? Do new media generators use those platforms?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Everyone. It's you, me and everyone.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Users use those platforms.

If those users are using those platforms that are regulated, is there a chance that regulation could be put on those people, so that they're abiding by it?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

No. It's not about the users.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

It's not about the users. It stops at the platform, somehow, magically. It doesn't ever get passed down to the users. No behaviour is expected of them.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

You are talking about the streamers—the streaming platforms, right? You're talking about Netflix, Disney and others. Is that what you're talking about?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Is that your definition of platform?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

The streamers are those big companies, yes. They have to have an impact on Canadian culture.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Will YouTube be a platform?