Canadian Heritage Committee on June 6th, 2022

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I appreciate your time and that you're listening to the arts sector.

Over the course of the study, we've heard witness after witness tell just how vital this bill is for our cultural sector and how urgent it is to get it through.

I have a few quotes here from what we've heard. We heard from the CEO of Music Publishers Canada, Margaret McGuffin earlier this week, who said that Bill C‑11 provides “an important balance by giving the commission the tools it needs to regulate when market forces fail. Modernizing the Broadcasting Act will ensure that, as technology evolves and online platforms continue to grow, [the music industry will] continue to thrive.”

Randy Kitt from Unifor told us:

Bill C-11 is just a much-needed update to the Broadcasting Act to ensure that Canadians have access to Canadian local programming, which couldn't happen if we let these Internet giants control our media.... Let's not get sidetracked by noise.

Bill Skolnik from the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions told us:

We can only hope that this attempt to revise our legislation will conclude shortly so the benefits can reach Canadian creators, artists, producers and organizations as soon as possible. They have been waiting for a very long time.

I have one more quote, from Marla Boltman from the organization Friends, who told us:

Requiring contributions from foreign tech giants that extract billions of dollars from our country will help sustain our industry while driving investment and innovation in the creation of Canadian content that continues to reflect our diversity of voices and who we are as Canadians. Foreign contributions will level the playing field between Canadian broadcasters and foreign platforms. Frankly, it sends a message to the world that Canada is open for business, but there are no more free rides. If you benefit from the system, you must contribute to it.

I couldn't agree any more with those quotes. This is a badly needed update to our broadcasting system, which will support Canadian culture for years to come.

We've spent a lot of time talking about this. I'd like to ask you this directly, Minister: What will this bill do for our Canadian culture and our artists?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Louis, for reminding us about the importance of all those things.

This bill will plays a major role for the Canadian cultural sector. This is why it's gotten so much support from the music, video, television and the movie industries. It's really time that we move on. The act has been out of date for what, about 40 years? I think this is a well- balanced bill that brings fairness to the system. This is what it's all about: levelling the playing field and having a fair system.

We have the streamers, which I love. Listen, I watch a lot of stuff on Disney. I'm a Star Wars fan. I watch stuff on Netflix, and this and that. They have no obligations, whereas other traditional broadcasters have all kinds of obligations. I think it's time that we level the playing field and that the streamers contribute to Canadian culture.

Listen, some of them are already doing it. That's great. We love it. Is it possible to do more? Can we discuss and do things together? At the same time the bill is very flexible, in that it will tell a streamer, based on their own business model, that this is how things could work. Let's discuss with them, based on their own business model, what is different and how we can work together. There's a very flexible and collaborative approach in this.

I think it's important to protect our culture. It's who we are. It's our past, present and future. It's the way we tell our stories. We made a decision a long time ago to be different from our neighbours to the south. We love them, but hey, we're not them. We're different.

We put in place mechanisms to support our industries, actors, producers, directors and singers. This is what it's all about—supporting the music, film and video industries. I don't know why some people refuse to support them. It's very sad, but we'll be there for them.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

I think we all agree that a copy and paste solution won't work. I would like to hear from you directly about how Bill C-11 excludes individuals from these requirements. We've heard you use just today the term “platforms in, users out”. You've used that many times. Can you expand on what you mean when you say that?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Absolutely. First, the bill is very clear. It excludes the users in proposed section 2.1. It's written there. I'm not inventing anything. The rest of the bill speaks for itself.

The problem is that people want us to see things in it that are not in the bill. These are simply not there. What we're looking for is if there's a platform or social media that plays an equivalent role of a streamer... In this case there's one, and it's YouTube. We're only talking about the commercial content, not what people post online. Whatever you post online, I'm sure it's great, but.... The CRTC actually said it very clearly. Now, other people will say, “Oh my God, you're going to play with algorithms.” No. It's clearly written there that the CRTC cannot play with algorithms. Lots of things are said about the bill that have nothing to do with the bill. The bill simply makes sure that the streamers and a platform that can be used by a streamer are covered by the bill. That's it, but users, no.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

You have about 20 seconds, Mr. Louis.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

That's not enough to answer a question, but again—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Just to go back on Ms. Thomas's comment at the end, it's not if you have a number that the bill touches you and is inclusive—no.

We say three criteria are important. Through the CRTC we say, this is your sandbox. Consider those three criteria, the most important being if you find the same context somewhere else. Then you draft regulations based on that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Minister, and Mr. Louis.

The next round is Monsieur Champoux.

You have the floor for six minutes and twenty‑five seconds.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you for giving me an extra 25 seconds, Mr. Chair, well done.

Good morning, Mr. Minister.

I'd like to get back to clause 4.2 of Bill C‑11. It's been the subject of much debate, as you know, because you've been at the heart of these discussions for quite some time.

Earlier, there was talk of commercial revenue.

Let's look at subclause 4.2(1):

For the purposes of paragraph 4.1(2)(b), the Commission may make regulations prescribing programs in respect of which this Act applies.

Subclause 4.2(2) states: In making regulations under subsection (1), the Commission shall consider the following matters:

(a) the extent to which a program, uploaded to an online undertaking that provides a social media service, directly or indirectly generates revenues;

I think this is causing concerns. Some people think that if they generate advertising revenue or get contracts from what they produce on YouTube or TikTok, they will be subject to the regulations.

How do you respond to those concerns?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Champoux, with all due respect, I would say that those concerns are baseless.

The three criteria set out in clause 4.2, namely revenue generation, the program being broadcast and the unique identifier, cannot be considered independently of one another. The CRTC must apply the spirit of the bill, taking into account all three criteria, and make rules on that basis.

You won’t find a YouTuber on Spotify making a lot of money posting videos about this or that. They're not the same, and one is not a substitute for the other. It would be like saying that if you search for one thing you'll find the other. I really like folk music and folk rock. If I search for “folk rock” on YouTube, I won't get a video of skateboarders. It'll bring up folk rock. Within that category, I can then look for Joni Mitchell songs, or those of other Canadian singers, for instance.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Since you're talking about Canadian singers, I'd like to get back to the subject of discoverability. We've often had people share their concerns about how ambiguous or ambivalent discoverability is. We've had people come before this committee and say that they produce content right here in their own backyards, yet it's not recognized as Canadian content. Some witnesses had me wondering if they actually wanted their work to be recognized as Canadian content or whether, on the contrary, they wanted to distance themselves from it.

What do you say to these people? Is their work Canadian content or not?

Will I get YouTubers in my search results if I actually want to find skateboarders, for instance?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm going to make an aside. I have to say that in the process of creating the bill, I discovered some amazing people and they are doing some fantastic things. It's something that my daughter looks at more than I do.

I have realized that we don't know these people very well. It would be worth taking the time to get to know each other and see how we can work together in the future. These people sometimes have fears, which are fuelled by certain individuals or certain parties. They fear that the CRTC will intervene and tell them that their content is inadequate and does not meet Canadian content criteria. These fears are unwarranted.

The CRTC will not manage the content itself. It will not tell you that the video you posted should not be the way it is. Can you imagine all the work the CRTC would have to do? I don't know how many videos are uploaded daily around the world, but imagine how many are uploaded annually. The CRTC can't monitor all that. We just want to make sure that the portion that is commercial content and is often used as a substitute for other content—take the example of YouTube for Spotify— will be treated the same way.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You talked about the importance of making contact, establishing a dialogue with these people and getting to know them. They are, in my opinion—I've said this before—the artists and craftsmen of a universe that is grafted onto broadcasting in some way, voluntarily or involuntarily. I don't think everyone is buying into that at the moment, but they are still players who are influential now and will be more so in the years to come.

Have you already started talking with representatives of this industry? I'm not just talking about the business leaders, but also the creators themselves.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, I even gave an award to the singer Jessia at the Juno Awards night. I went to see all the work she creates and it's amazing. Before that, I met several of the creators. I think it's a universe in itself and I would say that our young creators are among the best. I've met several from Quebec, and what they're doing is great.

I think we need to continue this dialogue.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Are you telling them that you want to help them without harming them?

They are concerned that the bill will harm them greatly. On May 18, we heard Mr. Ian Scott say that he was never going to impose ways of programming on YouTube, TikTok, and other platforms, and that, instead, he was going to give them a mandate to come up with suggestions to make sure that the goals were met.

Does this align with the vision you have?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's exactly right.

Neither we, through the law, nor the CRTC directly will ever interfere with how things are done. The CRTC will not have the right to dictate the types of algorithms. In any case, this is prohibited by law. There are also several sections of the law that talk about respecting freedom of expression, among other things. So I think the necessary elements are included in Bill C‑11.

The only reason the CRTC may be interested in content is to know what portion of it is commercial and must be treated as if it were on another platform.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

On May 24, the Quebec National Assembly unanimously passed a motion that reinforced Quebec's position and support for Bill C‑11. The members of the assembly went quite far in saying that social media should also be regulated and that contact and formal consultation with the Quebec government should be maintained before making decisions that would have an impact on Quebec culture.

Do you have a good relationship with the Quebec government? Do you have discussions to look at ways to link your policies?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, I have a very good relationship with the government of Quebec, especially with Ms. Nathalie Roy, Minister of Culture and Communications, with whom I started working when I first served as Minister of Canadian Heritage. I maintain a very good relationship with her.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

I'm sorry, but I must give the floor to someone else.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You're tough, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

I'm tough, but fair.

We'll now to the next questioner.

Mr. Julian, you have six minutes and 25 seconds.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, welcome to our committee.

You have probably been listening to the speeches in the House on Bill C‑11. I was surprised to hear a member of the Conservative Party say that this bill would allow the government to track people on their mobile phones.

What are the most outlandish things you've heard about Bill C‑11? There have been speeches that were really far from the substance of this bill.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

How much time do I have?

What I am a little concerned about, Mr. Julian, is the level of misinformation that there has been from members of the Conservative Party around the bill. I wouldn't say it was all Conservative members, but certainly some. They are making things up and creating a parallel debate on elements that do not exist in the bill. That is what is worrying.

For example, at a committee meeting I was appearing at, Ms. Thomas sent this tweet on Twitter:

“#killbillc11.... The bill needs to die a thousand deaths.”

How can we have a constructive debate to improve the bill when all along she has been saying that we should torpedo the bill?

Bill C‑11 , like any bill, deserves an informed and responsible debate, and we need to have it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is also what we heard from the majority of the witnesses we had at this committee. They want the bill to pass. However, there are still concerns. People have raised some points to improve the bill.

This comes to my second question, which is about the issue of freedom of expression. You've already responded in part to this. Do you feel that all of the elements of the bill reinforce freedom of expression? Do you also feel that it provides clear direction to the CRTC that the bill has to be interpreted in a way that upholds freedom of expression?