Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I was just surprised. There is no need to wait for a new era. All nine board members should have resigned immediately in August. You were the board chair. I think all nine should have resigned on August 5. You pulled the pin three months early, because you are up for re-election in November 2022. With you leading the board and pulling the pin early, I would suspect that all eight others should have pulled the pin with you.

What is your response to that?

[Michael Brind’Amour]

I thank the member for the question.

As for your characterization of my role in your introduction, I refute it. Under my leadership, we made immense progress in terms of cultural change to end mistreatment, abuse, bullying and harassment, and we made a great deal of progress in terms of inclusion. We had a long way to go, it must be said. I therefore refute your characterization.

As for your question, it’s up to every member to make their own decision.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I know it's composed of volunteers, but as the chair, did you have one-on-one conversations with Tom Renney and Scott Smith about the 2018 sexual assault allegations?

[Michael Brind’Amour]

Thank you for the question.

I was not chair of the board of directors when the events occurred in 2018.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

You were in 2020, and that's when we pick up the story, because in May 2022, $3.55 million was transferred into an account for E.M.

When did you first know about 2018? When did the CEO of Hockey Canada inform you about 2018?

[Michael Brind’Amour]

In June 2018, when I was not yet chair, the sitting board of directors was informed towards the end of the month that the event had occurred and there was a sexual assault allegation.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

What did you do after you were informed? When you came on the board, what was the procedure of the board to move forward with the 2018 allegations? What did you do, in terms of your leadership?

[Michael Brind’Amour]

Thank you for the question.

As soon as we were made aware of this event, we were also informed that action had been taken by management.

The London Police Service was then informed of the situation, and Hockey Canada reported it.

We were also informed that management had commissioned a legal advisory firm to investigate to find out the truth and to make recommendations to Hockey Canada.

We were also informed that our management had reported the matter to Sport Canada, as well as to the insurers.

This is the information that was provided to us when we were informed of the situation in late June 2018.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Kevin. Your time is up. I will go to Lisa Hepfner for the Liberals.

You have five minutes, Lisa.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would like to begin my questions with Ms. Skinner.

In your opening statement, you said this toxic violence is not a specific hockey problem, yet the stories we're hearing around Hockey Canada are different from the stories of abuse we're hearing around other sports. I am wondering if you can comment on that.

What we're hearing about Hockey Canada is more than one incident of athletes acting like a pack of hooligans, and we don't hear that about athletes in other sports. I'm wondering if you can talk about the hockey culture and why you think we're hearing specific stories about hockey and not about other sports.

[Andrea Skinner]

The whole topic of sexual assault is a difficult one. The allegations of group sexual assault that I've heard of happened in 2018 and 2003. I'm not aware of other incidents of that.

When I referred to scapegoating in my opening statement, I was talking about sexual assault and the way we treat women as being a societal problem. It's a social issue and it's triggered by the environments we exist in. Just last week, there were two new stories about politicians who have had allegations of sexual assault thrown at them.

In my view, any incident, no matter the type, is problematic. That's the point I was trying to make in my opening remarks. I think we need to not sit back and condemn just hockey, but take a broader view of this and ask how we can fix this in every sport and everywhere.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

If that's the case, do you see a problem with Hockey Canada condoning this behaviour? More than condoning the behaviour, do you see a problem when there are no consequences, when these allegations come forward and there are no consequences to players?

There's a fund that pays off the victim. You talk about wanting to respect the victim, but, respectfully, it sounds like a cop-out, because the players walked away with no consequences. The behaviour can continue because the top, Hockey Canada, is saying, “We'll pay and we'll make it go away.” The players can continue and no one will ever hear any further details.

Do you understand why it looks to the general public like Hockey Canada is condoning that behaviour?

[Andrea Skinner]

I understand there is a perspective out there. With great respect, I disagree with it. We want to see consequences for the players.

The woman in this circumstance did not identify and refused to identify the players. What Hockey Canada has done is decide to resolve the matter in a way that was trauma-centred, victim-centred or complainant-centred. At the same time, we have an investigation that's ongoing. We put it in place so players will have to participate in that investigation, so the truth can be discovered. If they are found to have violated the code of conduct, they will be held responsible, and that's a process that's ongoing.

I absolutely think there needs to be accountability. I absolutely reject that we've condoned this. We took a view to try to respectfully deal with the wishes and perspectives of the woman.

I can point to a very recent example of exactly what we were trying to avoid by resolving this matter and not pushing it through the litigation process. That's the story about Jake Virtanen. He was charged with sexual assault recently from an incident in 2017. In 2021 or 2022, the criminal trial resolved—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'm sorry. It's a little off topic.

[Andrea Skinner]

I'm sorry.

I'm happy to save this for a different point. I'm trying to illustrate that this was not an attempt to condone anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Ms. Skinner. The questioner has the right to tell you when she thinks you have or have not answered her question.

Go ahead, Ms. Hepfner.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Let me go to another witness, Mr. Brind'Amour, and ask the same question.

Both of you said that Hockey Canada took appropriate action at the time, yet there are changes now being made so that players have to participate in the action.

Do you think Hockey Canada, from the top, has been condoning this behaviour by maintaining a fund through which players face no consequences for their actions?

[Michael Brind’Amour]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Hepfner.

I do not understand the verb “to condone”. I can tell you, however, that from the moment the investigation conducted by the law firm was able to resume, it was made clear before the committee when Ms. Robitaille last testified that she did not wish to continue to hear testimony from the players, but first and foremost wished to meet with the complainant, to speak with her or to obtain a statement from her before continuing with her investigation. It is along these lines—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Brind'Amour, I think Ms. Hepfner has gone way over her time.

I'm trying to be fair to everybody, so I'm allowing some leeway here. I think you'll have to answer that question when another questioner comes up.

I'm going to go to Mr. Lemire.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, I will be the one to ask questions.

Mr. Brind'Amour and Ms. Skinner, I heard your opening remarks and I am now hearing your answers to the questions asked. When Mr. Smith first came before the committee, we were all shocked at the way that events and allegations of sexual assault were trivialized when he told the committee that this sort of thing was happening elsewhere in society.

I feel like I'm hearing the same kind of talk today. Yet these allegations are serious.

Earlier, you compared what is happening at Hockey Canada to other instances of violence that we see in the news and elsewhere in society. We are here to talk about what happened at Hockey Canada. We don't deny that things happen in other sports, as well. We've all heard about them. However, we are here to address the 2018 allegations of sexual assault, and there have been other cases within Hockey Canada. We were told so in committee.

Ms. Skinner, you can answer that, but there is one question you have not answered.

The other concern has to do with the organization's image. You mentioned the second trust. If what has been said in the media about that trust is not true, can you tell us what it was for?

[Andrea Skinner]

I heard a number of questions. I'm happy to start with the question about the legacy trust.

As I tried to explain, that trust was established to cover uninsured claims that might arise from the period when Hockey Canada and its members were self-insured, so for claims that might arise between September 1986 and August 1995. That's why there was money put into that trust.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yet what has been reported in the media and what many are complaining about is that this trust was established to protect you in the event of sexual assault allegations.

It is this culture of silence and the way you have tried to sweep this under the rug, rather than being transparent, that is problematic.

You say you wanted to respond to the victim's requests, but you could have been much more transparent to show that you were taking the allegations seriously and that Hockey Canada was taking steps to implement a real culture change. That is not what was done.

[Andrea Skinner]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I fundamentally disagree with the way the trust has been characterized in the media. In terms of trivializing or sweeping aside sexual assault allegations or other maltreatment, I can tell you that's absolutely not the case.

We've done a number of things as a board since 2020. We've adopted a national template maltreatment policy, which we distributed to all of our members. In June 2021, we started tracking incidents of maltreatment, including things like discriminatory taunts and insults under rule 11.4, and we are tracking that so we can better understand where incidents of maltreatment are occurring. We were doing that long before this discussion around sexual assault took place.

Just recently we've created a new independent and confidential mechanism to investigate complaints. This will improve Hockey Canada's handling of complaints when they do come forward. We also adopted an inclusive gender expression and gender identity policy that's going to benefit all of our participants, including transgender participants. We have been completely preoccupied with making the game safer and more inclusive for people, and putting in place systems that will allow us to better respond to these unfortunate incidents of maltreatment when they come forward.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

People are also concerned about the follow-up to all of this. You talk about policies, but when we keep digging, we find new allegations, and they surface regularly.

How can you assure us that a culture change will take place if the same people are running the organization? A change in culture also requires a change in the leadership that has condoned the actions, that has trivialized the culture, that has not taken the necessary steps, and that has been more concerned with protecting their image than trying to ensure a safe environment.

How can you seriously think you can implement the necessary changes with the leaders who were there when these events took place and did everything they could to delay the process?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche. I think your time is well over. You actually got five minutes, Ms. Larouche, and you really should have had only 2.5 minutes, but there you go.

Mr. Julian, I'm going to give you five minutes as well.