Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 4th, 2022

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think it's fair to say that the lack of financial transparency around these issues of allegations of sexual abuse and sexual violence is very disturbing. I'm calling on the Minister of Sport to do a full audit of Hockey Canada going back to 2016. That is one way Canadian parents and the Canadian public can get answers to these important questions.

I want to come back, Ms. Skinner, to Mr. Smith's testimony for July 27. When I asked him about victims who wanted to come forward if Hockey Canada would release them from the non-disclosure agreements, Mr. Smith said:

For victims who will come forward, first and foremost, we want to make sure they have the confidence in our independent investigation. We will continue to work to document their wishes. If they wish to eliminate those,

—and that means the non-disclosure agreements—

unless there is a legal reason not to that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure why we wouldn't. Our priority is to support the victims.

Ms. Skinner, has the board taken that decision, to release the victims who choose to be released from their non-disclosure agreements?

[Andrea Skinner]

We have not been asked that question, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The board has not had any follow-up at all. We had Mr. Scott Smith in public testimony, after being sworn in, saying he would endeavour to do that, and the board has not even now, two months later, looked into the issue of non-disclosure agreements. Has there been no discussion at the board at all?

[Andrea Skinner]

Sir, there has been discussion about non-disclosure agreements in a general sense, but not in relation to any particular matter. Every circumstance is unique. Often the non-disclosure agreement is put in at the request of the complainant or the victim. If a request were to come forward, we would absolutely consider it and deal with it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

However, there's been no discussion of that at the board level, even though it was very clear—at least in testimony here—that Hockey Canada would be open to that. Is the message you're sending to victims today that Hockey Canada will allow them to be released from their non-disclosure agreements? Is that the message you are giving to the Canadian public and to the victims today?

[Andrea Skinner]

My message is that every case has its own unique set of circumstances and facts, and if an individual who is the subject of a non-disclosure agreement wishes to come forward and to be released from that, I would invite them to come forward and make that request, and we'll deal with it when it's made.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is different from what he said on July 27. Do you understand the contradiction between saying—

[Andrea Skinner]

I'm sorry. I don't recall that testimony, so I'm not trying to be difficult. I don't recall that from Mr. Smith and I don't have his transcript.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The message from Hockey Canada on July 27 was that they're open. Now you're saying that Hockey Canada will consider it, which doesn't appear open at all. I regret that. I would have preferred a message from you, as chair of the board, saying to victims that Hockey Canada will release them from non-disclosure agreements if they so choose.

I'll move on, then.

[Andrea Skinner]

I'm happy to respond to that. I don't think we're saying anything different. We want to be open, and we certainly are taking a complainant-centric approach. That's why we handled the 2018 incident the way we did. I don't disagree with what you said, sir.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Your message today to the victims is that if they choose or if they want to be released from the non-disclosure agreement, Hockey Canada will allow that.

[Andrea Skinner]

Hockey Canada will consider it with a view to allowing it, unless there's a good reason not to.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Were there no requests made on August 2 at the Hockey Canada board around non-disclosure agreements?

[Andrea Skinner]

I believe there has been one request around a non-disclosure agreement related to a former board member and his involvement in the board. That is still something the board is gathering more information on. It's not an incident related to sexual assault.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Ms. Skinner, I have appendix 1 from the Hockey Canada board agenda for August 2, 2022. It says non-disclosure agreement—to request for removal of signed NDAs.

[Andrea Skinner]

I stand corrected. There are two requests in relation to the same incident that happened at the board level. Again, it was investigated by an independent party, as I understand it. This was a board well before my time. Again, as I understand it, it has nothing to do with sexual assault, but it's —

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Did the board release that individual from the NDA?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Peter, we're going to have to leave that one on the table, and you can ask it again.

I want to apologize to the committee for allowing both Peter and Ms. Larouche to go to five minutes, but this testimony is so fascinating that I get lost in listening to it and listening to what I consider sometimes to be absolute contradiction in the testimony.

Anyway, we'll move on, and I will go to Ms. Thomas for five minutes, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

So far, what we've heard from Mr. Brind'Amour is that he stepped back from being chair of the board because there is much to do and much that needs to be accomplished, and he wanted to see that.

We heard from Ms. Skinner. She said there will be no more changes to leadership at this time because the organization needs to remain stable and that, therefore, it will continue as the status quo.

I'm curious as to which one it is, then.

Ms. Skinner, in your view, should Hockey Canada be most interested in maintaining stability, or should Hockey Canada be interested in creating cultural change?

[Andrea Skinner]

I think Hockey Canada can do both. The cultural changes have already started with my presence on the board, starting in November 2020. I think it's been accelerated. Stability is also an important consideration, especially in view of the fact that we have an entire board that's up for election in just a couple of months' time.

I don't think it's in the best interest of hockey or Hockey Canada for this organization to be destroyed. I don't think that a mass exit.... If all the board were to resign and if all senior management were to be replaced, who would they be replaced with? What would that mean for hockey? How would that impact the boys and girls?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Let me be a bit more specific, then.

Every leading voice having to do with organizational change would say that the way to produce a desired culture is to start with the leader. Now, you seem to be very insistent that this leader needs to be protected, that he should be kept in place and that somehow organizational change or a culture shift is still possible. You're saying that starts with you. You just said you're a very instrumental piece in that change, but you don't seem to be open to changing the culture by starting with the leader.

What I'm hearing from you and Hockey Canada is that there are these words that are being nuanced. There are these platitudes that are being made in order to try to pacify the public, whether that be the public at large, players or parents. I'm not seeing meaningful structures being put in place in order to generate the change that is needed in order to create a Hockey Canada that we as Canadians can be proud of, that players can join, that parents can be part of and know that the players are going to be in the best care possible.

I'm just curious why. Why is the leader of this organization being protected rather than being held accountable?

[Andrea Skinner]

Madam Chair, the leader is not being protected. Management is independent from the board of Hockey Canada. Those lines are clear. Hockey—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Skinner, with all due respect, is it not the responsibility of the board to determine whether or not the leader of Hockey Canada stays?

[Andrea Skinner]

Absolutely it is, but that's not a measure of protection.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay, I just wanted to make sure this was clear. Then it is your decision as chair, your responsibility, to lead the board in its decision-making process and to determine whether or not the leader of Hockey Canada stays or goes. Is that correct?