Evidence of meeting #48 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
No. It's hard to say who would apply, or not, because there are many different programs directed at them that are benefiting those small media. In many cases, those very small media are more interested in the other programs that exist, rather than in those in Bill C-18.
It would be hard to know, because a lot of them would be continuing to use those programs instead of those in Bill C-18.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Peter, I'm sorry. That's it. Your time is up.
Now we're going to go to the second round, which is a five-minute round. It begins with the Conservatives and Marilyn Gladu.
You have five minutes, please.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Minister, for appearing today.
I want to start by talking about the criteria the government is going to use to determine who's a qualified news organization. We heard from the CRTC today that it isn't their job to determine this.
In your response to Mr. Champoux, you said it wasn't for you to determine, but at the start, you said you're going to publish the list of the digital news intermediaries and the criteria for selecting them.
What criteria is the government going to use to say who's a qualified organization?
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It's in the bill. It's in clause 27. When I say that we're going to publish it, it's at the end, based on those criteria; then some news outlets are going to be included and some others not, and then in the end you will know.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Right, but we're being asked to approve the bill without knowing what the criteria are or who the people are that are included on the list—
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Well, let's talk a bit about them, because it says that you're going to focus on general news outlets.
I'm interested in knowing, then, who is going to be excluded. Could you give some examples of the people that you're thinking to exclude?
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Ms. Gladu, I don't think it's up to me to decide and name organizations that would not be included or included. As you know, the concept of the bill is to stay as arm's length as possible. It's just to put a table in the middle, with criteria, and then the platforms are included to negotiate with
the media that are included.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
I don't understand, then, because you've said that you were going to publish a list of the digital news intermediaries, and then you said that it wasn't for you to pick. It sounds like some people will be excluded, and it's not clear who that is, but how is the government picking which people will be excluded in any way freedom of the press?
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It's freedom of the press, exactly, because I'm not the one picking and deciding, and the government is not doing that.
You have a set of criteria, Ms. Gladu, that will determine which platform is in a dominant position and will be included, right? For example, it could be Google. It could be Facebook. There's a set of criteria that determine it. Then there's a set of criteria that would determine which news outlets will be included. I'm not deciding. I'm not picking one or refusing another one. At the end of the day, those are included on both sides. They get together and they negotiate.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay. If an organization feels like they are being excluded, what is the complaint mechanism to resolve that?
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay.
Could you tell me something about what happened in Australia? I understood that when this legislation was rolled out there, Facebook shut down all of the content for Australia, so I think it's important for us to make sure that doesn't happen here. If the same thing occurs in Canada, it would be bad, because 22 million Canadians are on Meta, on Facebook.
Can you describe what happened there and what measures we're putting in place to make sure that doesn't happen here?
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
It's a business decision that has to be taken by the platform. In that case, Facebook took out the news content, but it decided to bring it back. I think Facebook has an important relationship with Canadians. Many, many Canadians have a Facebook page—I'm pretty sure everyone here on the screen does—and at the end of the day, it's up to them to make a decision.
This is only asking Facebook and Google—or whoever qualifies, based on the independent criteria—to compensate the production of news that is produced by professionals, that has quality, because we have to uphold the freedom of the press and a strong and independent press. We need it for democracy, Ms. Gladu.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Oh, for sure, I absolutely agree. It's only in Communist nations that the government determines who is the state media so that they can put out their propaganda. For sure, we don't want that here.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
I think we want to have Facebook come to talk to the committee so we can learn from them and make sure that we don't repeat the same mistakes that they had.
I'm also concerned about these larger companies—Rogers, CBC and Bell—getting the lion's share, because I think the noble intent of the bill is to try to protect the smaller media outlets.
I realize I'm out of time. Thank you, Minister.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much.
I just wanted to say that we only have time for the Liberal member and the Bloc. We cannot finish the full round, because I know that the minister has to leave at three o'clock on the dot.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Yes. I was just curious if we could ask the minister if he would be willing to stay until the end of the third round.
