Evidence of meeting #48 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore
Ian Scott  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Rachelle Frenette  General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Isabelle Mondou  Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I'm open to discussion, Mr. Julian. As I said earlier, there are a lot of programs for those media outlets. I mentioned the Canada media fund, for example, which greatly benefits small media outlets. Consequently, they are much less interested in Bill C‑18, even though some have an interest in it.

Many people have told me we should guarantee the survival of other existing programs because that's what's important for them. So we'll make sure we keep those programs in place because they benefit the small players.

I'd like to mention one final thing, Mr. Julian. Collective bargaining, with which you're very familiar, confers an enormous amount of power on those who are concerned by Bill C‑18 and who can join forces to negotiate with the major media.

2:55 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

However…

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Peter. I'm sorry; that's it.

Now, as Martin suggested, I'm going for two and half minutes to the Conservatives. I don't know who is going to be up.

Mr. Shields, you have two and half minutes, please.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Built into my genetics is that when you hear the words “trust me” or “I'm here from the government to help”, run. Run fast in the opposite direction. It's built into my genetics, so when I see legislation at any level written and it's wide open, the regulations are critical. This one scares me. It scares me because of what has to be written next.

I've been around a long time. I've seen a lot regulations written on legislation that's very broad, and that's what gets scary to me, so Minister, when you talk about facts, I go to a term called “history”. As soon as you write something, it's history. When you split it in half, one is his story. Everybody's story is valid; it's his story. When you say that we have to have media with facts, everybody has his story. It's like when police take witness statements: They take one and they get one statement. When they take another one, they get another set of facts. When they take a third one, they get another set of facts. Everybody's personal opinions and everything they write are facts to them. I have a little problem when you say you only want media with facts, because what everybody writes is factual to them.

When you say “exclude”, I get really nervous. I'm inclusion. You said “excluding”. I don't like things that exclude. That's problematic for me.

My last thing, Minister, and you know it, is that I have a number of independent newspapers in my riding, and they are not covered by any of these. They have fewer than two journalists. They are hard-working people and they don't have the time or the resources to get together to negotiate anything. There are only going to be crumbs left on the table for anybody after the big guys take it. Minister, this doesn't help the weekly newspapers that cover everything in my riding in the communities. It's problematic.

Mr. Minister, I don't know. You've heard me say this before.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

On your last point, I have to disagree because, if you look at the Australian model, which this is based on, it really benefited small media. When you say I want to exclude someone, I am not excluding or including anyone. I fully support a market-based approach, which is this case. I'm only setting up a table in the middle where platforms and media outlets come and negotiate.

They negotiate between commercial—

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Mr. Minister, you used the word “exclude”—

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Shields—

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

—and you've said this legislation allows to exclude—

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Shields, please. Let the minister finish his sentence, please.

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

He said “exclude”, legislation to exclude. He said it a few minutes ago. I have a problem with that.

You said it.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Mr. Shields, the government is not picking winners and losers, and that's the most important thing with this bill. You don't want the government to be involved in this. You don't want it. I don't want it. I'm the last person who wants to be involved in choosing who would be in or out. We have a set of criteria that determines the platforms, a set of criteria that will decide who the media outlets will be and then get together and negotiate.

You guys usually support a market-based approach. I know you do. I do. Let's let them negotiate.

3 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

And you said it's legislation—

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Shields—

3 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

—that allows for exclusion—

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

Mr. Shields, order. Mr. Shields, I'm sorry; your time is up.

We will go to Mr. Housefather for the Liberals for two and a half minutes. Thank you.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you very much for being here today, Mr. Minister. Let me just say that I was listening to my colleague as he was saying that he was concerned about smaller newspapers in his community, and one of the ways to fix that is to propose an amendment when we do our clause-by-clause consideration of this bill, which I hope we will get to very shortly.

Mr. Minister, because I'm only getting two minutes, the only thing I want to ask you about is the PBO report. The report omits the ability for organizations to band together. Can you talk about why collective bargaining is an essential part of this legislation?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

It's essential, and you only have to look at the size of some of those media outlets to see why. We want them to be included. We want the small players to be included. I have had I don't know how many meetings with small media that were so happy and reassured by the fact that they could get together to negotiate with the big platforms. They did it in Australia. It worked. We're doing it here, and I'm pretty convinced that it's going to work.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you.

Just to end, I know it's Friday afternoon and I don't want to hold you up any longer. I don't want to hold my colleagues up any longer. I do think this is an important piece of legislation and I think we need to move to clause-by-clause study as soon as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Anthony. You had time left, but that's fine.

Thank you very much, Minister, for coming. I know that you have a hard stop. I know that you have to do something else, so I want to thank you for coming and answering the questions.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you so much. This bill is so important for journalism in our democracy, Madam Speaker. Thank you for your work.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Not at all.

Thank you all. This meeting is now adjourned.