Evidence of meeting #34 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cpac.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
It's great to see you, as always.
It's my turn to very warmly welcome our two new committee members. I know the people of Cumberland—Colchester, as well as Terrebonne, will be very well represented over the context of all that we do here in heritage committee.
I have the privilege of representing various perspectives in this committee. I am the youngest Arab, the youngest Muslim and the first Canadian of Palestinian origin to serve in this beautiful House of Commons.
My mother's side of her family, following the 1948 Nakba, was completely pushed out to Lebanon. I say completely pushed out, but they actually had to flee. For their entire lives, members of my family have had to convince people of their story, a story that is often understood by many others, but that is refuted by so many others in other contexts. Everybody here has a story, and their stories are assumed in most contexts. My family's is not.
Countless Palestinians around the world have to convince people that the atrocities they face, that the things that they live, day in and day out, are not okay. That, in itself, is a form of anti-Palestinian racism. Hospitals have been bombed over the past few years. It's not just the past few years; it is so much beyond that. The entirety of Gaza is destroyed and, at this point, eradicated. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been murdered, yet we stand here and still have to convince and convey that it is worthy of coverage. We have to convey that it deserves to be covered by the CBC.
I will now turn to my questions, but I thought that was worth the comment, at the very least.
Mr. Rooke, you started in campus and community radio at the age of 15 when you were introduced to the CFRU at the University of Guelph. If a 15-year-old today wanted to enter radio or local journalism, would the pathway still exist in the same way?
Executive Director, National Campus and Community Radio Association
Pathways for training from and through our radio organizations do exist for somebody who comes in, whether they're 15 or 65. Our network offers training for someone who has no knowledge. Often, people are from communities that come from outside of Canada and are settling here in Canada, bringing their own languages as well. There's often even that separation of knowledge and ability.
We are seeing a shift in the formalized structures and steps by which people go through post-secondary education. Close to two-thirds of the journalism and broadcasting schools have closed in Canada. What we've seen is an inability for people who are interested to go through training as a formalized process.
There's obviously a blend of non-profits, professional groups, mentorships and so on that are available, but that core pathway has been impacted dramatically over the last six months to a year.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
According to an article from BayToday earlier this month, you stated:
Yet in many of the campus and community radio stations, and especially the Indigenous ones, they're often the only source of information and news in those spaces—let alone a spot for people to share their passion and learn as an entry level into the media.
If this is the case, should they still be treated as training grounds and cultural platforms, or should they now be understood as essential local news infrastructure?
Executive Director, National Campus and Community Radio Association
We've argued that it's part of a broad connection. Community radio, as a whole, has shifted more towards a community media platform. This means that, as people are entering, whether they want to do a radio show or a podcast; learn how to produce content, a web series or community events; or learn how to run an organization, the connections that these stations make spread beyond broadcasting over AM or FM, and they're usually integrated directly into the way that the organizations work.
Campus radio stations are a good example. A lot of the time, professors are working with students to learn how to do this type of media sharing of stories, as opposed to writing their fifth essay. In indigenous spaces, there are often communities in which you do not have generalized communications in some spaces. Using the airwaves is not your traditional...you turn it on; you listen to the morning show. It might only be on a couple of times throughout the week, but they're there for important information, whether it's reaching people who are out hunting and trapping or emergency services and whatnot.
The breadth of what these stations do has really expanded dramatically. Yes, the training and education is one part of it, but we're also looking at access to news. We're talking about access to advertising for local businesses, and music is still a huge portion of what we do.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Monsieur Desjardins, I turn to you for my last question for this round.
Time and again in this committee we've heard about rapid changes in technological advancements, consumer behaviours and consumer habits. In previous studies I've made a point of highlighting the importance of future-proofing legislation, ensuring that dialogue is active and that we're engaging industry at large.
How do you find we can most effectively as a government consistently maintain these rapports with industry and make sure that they are feeding into the legislative process beyond these committees? I've heard that folks feel they come to committee every three years or so and highlight the same frustrations over again.
President, Canadian Association of Broadcasters
I would say that over the last several years we've had a good exchange with the government and members of the opposition parties in terms of conveying the challenges that our members are facing and the ways that those could be addressed.
There's another player within this with the CRTC, which implements this legislation. We've stated that we would like to see the commission both move faster and be willing to take an approach that doesn't look at chiselling regulation into granite. They should understand that with rapid changes within the media industry they need to look ahead to understand and—to use their term—make sure that they get it right. It's to be willing to come back, revisit and get it right again when they need to, as change dictates.
Liberal
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm going to start with a comment for Ms. Dickenson. I'm very disappointed to hear that you've been forced to cut two important shows from your programming. These aren't the first cuts we've seen in the media landscape or the news industry in recent years, yet they're still just as gut-wrenching.
Earlier, you talked about opinion journalism with my Conservative colleague. I would like you to expand on this new element of the news industry that we've been seeing since the arrival of social media and these new types of journalism, if you will. As you said, we now have opinion journalism, if that can be called journalism, and commentary. I get the impression that people have trouble distinguishing between pure journalism—that is, journalism that involves researching the news and double-checking facts—and opinion journalism, commentaries and editorials. I agree, there is a place for that. I think we can make room for all these types of journalism in our ecosystem. What I'm hearing is that some people are taking advantage of this confusion in order to paint all types of journalism with the same brush so as to condemn and speak out against journalism, which they see as biased.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Do we need a better definition of the types of journalism in the media outlets we turn to?
Is it okay to let people use editorials that are intertwined with serious reports, which suggests that there may be a certain journalistic bias in certain media outlets or among certain reporters? What do you think?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Cable Public Affairs Channel (CPAC)
I don't think that the issue is about labelling the types of journalism that currently exist. I think the issue is about protecting the ability to do that double-checking you talked about, whether it's for a big story, a simpler, everyday story, a podcast or whatever. You really need to have the ability to do that double-checking.
What's different about CPAC—I'm here representing CPAC, of course—is that, at the end of the day, no other institution provides all these hours in a long, unmodified format, that is, without editing or interruptions. Something I find truly incredible, and I believe I mentioned this in my speech, is the number of hours of recording that we add to our archives every day. We add 20 to 24 hours every day to our large library.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Yes, there's no need to revisit CPAC's mission. I'm a fan. Indeed, I think we should look at adequate funding, based on the reality of today's market. I hear you on that.
However, I really want to make a distinction between what journalism is and what opinion or commentary is, and the perception that some people have of journalism being biased. That does a disservice to the profession, in my opinion, and it serves absolutely no purpose if we want to protect what we consider to be very valuable, that is, quality journalism. We can criticize journalism, of course. We always have the right to criticize. However, there is a certain foundation to this profession, and I think we need to provide that context.
I turn my attention now to Kevin Desjardins.
You are a little bit like the icing on the cake here, because some members of your organization, the CAB, have made these types of requests to the committee. These are requests that you've echoed today, including emergency support for CAB members that benefit from the independent local news fund. You also talked about the much-touted tax credit and government advertising. These are things that we've been hearing time and again for quite a while.
You and I have been talking for several years, Mr. Desjardins. We know each other quite well. Do you think that repeating these ideas will achieve anything? I get the feeling that we're just repeating ourselves and nobody is listening.
President, Canadian Association of Broadcasters
I have to believe that. By pushing the rock up the hill, we have to believe that we will eventually get to the top. I think we're getting close. It's not easy to get things done in government, but they're starting to hear these issues, recognize the crisis we're in and understand what kind of support we need.
Unfortunately, we have lost stations, services, journalists and newsrooms since the first bill was introduced to modernize the Broadcasting Act, Bill C‑10.
However, we're seeing progress. I'd really like us to get all the support we need. We're getting closer, but we're not ready to celebrate yet.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
The economic update will be tabled this afternoon at around 4 o'clock. If the economic update does not include the long-overdue support measures for the news media that we've been calling for, what will your reaction be tomorrow morning?
President, Canadian Association of Broadcasters
I fear that this will send a message to some of our members that support is not coming. I hope to see something in the update. We've been calling for this for quite some time. Both my organization and our members would really like to see at least some progress on that.
Liberal
Conservative
Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thanks, Madam Chair.
Mr. Epstein, we've heard at this committee from a group called HonestReporting Canada, which did a study saying that CBC is biased against Israel in the broadcaster's coverage of the war in Gaza. You go further by saying that the CBC is essentially operating as a “mouthpiece...for terrorist entities”. Those are strong words. Can you give examples of this?
Chief Executive Officer, Tafsik Organization
Of course. It's using information provided to them by terrorists. The Hamas health ministry is Hamas. The health ministry is not operated as an independent body that is unbiased, and it is operated by Hamas. All of Gaza is operated by Hamas. When they're getting information from that part of Hamas, it is still information that's being provided by a terrorist organization, and they ignore the fact that they're getting their news information from the same people who are capable of beheading people with shovels. They are rushing to push narratives by an organization that quite literally states that they want to annihilate the only Jewish state in the world. This is how they work as a mouthpiece for terror.
Conservative
Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB
What have you done to try to push back against this? Have you gone to the CBC? Have you had meetings? Have you tried to make your case to the CBC?
Chief Executive Officer, Tafsik Organization
The CBC isn't quick to return emails. They operate, and will continue to operate, in the way they do and with the language they use in refraining from using specific words. They won't say the word “terrorist” anymore. Now it's “militant”.
It continues to degrade and fall into being a deeper, darker, more biased news agency. It's not getting better. It's getting worse.
Conservative
Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Why do you think this sort of treatment is a danger to Canadians?
Chief Executive Officer, Tafsik Organization
It's because a lot of Canadians don't know exactly what's happening in the Middle East, just as most of us here don't know what's happening in Botswana or other countries around the world. There are many of them. There are a lot of things happening.
When people are seeing information that is specifically trying to demonize and demoralize a people who are at war for their rights and their existence, it's going to shape people's attitudes and it's going to shape people's perception. This has led to the drastic explosion of the anti-Semitism, hate and violence that we see on the streets, with restaurants and community centres being shot at.
The police have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to maintain the anti-Semitic rallies that we see, the pro-Hamas rallies that we see. This has an effect on people who are watching, as it would on anyone. If you are seeing just one narrative of “bad guy over here, good guy over here”, it's going to cause anger and frustration, as it would in anyone.
This is what we're seeing from the CBC and many other news outlets. They're not reporting unbiased information. They're not reporting two sides of a story. They report one, and that's what they move forward with. That report lends itself to the vilification of the Jewish community for actions that are happening thousands of miles away.
There is no other community responsible for the actions of their foreign government. We don't see people attacking Chinese Canadians because of what China is doing. We don't see people attacking North Koreans because of their dictator. The only people in Canada who are responsible for a foreign government thousands of miles away are in the Jewish community, and we see it with the constant violence on the streets and everywhere. This is lending itself to the increase of anti-Semitism.
Conservative
Kerry Diotte Conservative Edmonton Griesbach, AB
What should be done or can be done to solve the issue?
Chief Executive Officer, Tafsik Organization
A very small solution would be to stop voicing the fringe, the tiny groups that represent nobody in our community.
The far majority of Jews are Zionists. Zionism means only the belief of self-determination in our ancestral homeland. It doesn't mean anything against anyone else. It doesn't even speak to any of those things. Zionism is a part of our religion. It has been that way for thousands of years. It's in our prayers every day. When we say “Shema Ysrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad”, we're talking about Israel. We're talking about the yearning to return to Jerusalem. This is not a newly fabricated thing that happened 100 years ago.
The one thing we ask is to stop voicing the opinion of a tiny scintilla of our community as representing the far majority. Start using organizations like HonestReporting if you want our position. Tafsik and B'nai Brith represent the far majority of Jews, not the small number of tokenized Jews who think they're standing for a cause when all they're really doing is providing further platforming for those who wish us harm.
Liberal
