Declaration of Emergency Committee on Sept. 29th, 2022

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, what I can speak to is that at the NCRCC, as well as at our crisis management centre that was stood up throughout the entire period here, all the discussions and decisions were scribed, which means that notes were taken throughout those two. That's something we can look for to provide to the committee.

[Claude Carignan]

Perfect.

Could you provide the emails exchanged between these departments and you, and between the City of Ottawa or the mayor's office and you?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, again the only thing I'd be in a position to provide to the committee would be the dates and times for verbal telephone conversations I had.

[Claude Carignan]

Fine.

Are the other two speakers able to do so?

[Patrick McDonell]

I'm not sure how many notes and emails I generated during that event. I will verify exactly how many there were, and before saying yes to your question, I will consult with the office of the Law Clerk and Legal Counsel of the House of Commons.

[Claude Carignan]

Perfect.

Ms. Lacroix, will you consult the one from the Senate?

[Julie Lacroix]

Yes, exactly.

[Claude Carignan]

All right. That's fine.

My question is for Mr. Brookson.

I've looked at your expertise. Don't be surprised; I have looked at your LinkedIn page. I'm impressed with your expertise in operations, in particular.

You had good ideas for interventions. You could block certain streets. From an operational point of view, you had your opinion on what could have been done or what should have been done. What do you think the Emergencies Act added?

From an operational point of view, the act didn't add anything to prevent or help clear the street, did it?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I can speak only to what my responsibility is for the Parliamentary Protective Service. We're not a policing entity, and therefore the invocation of the Emergencies Act provided no additional authority for me.

With respect to what it may have provided to either the Ottawa police force or the RCMP, it would be best for them to respond to that question.

[Claude Carignan]

Fine. I have no further questions.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much, Senator Carignan. We will finish with a five-minute round for Senator Boniface, and then I will need about five minutes or so after that just to do a little bit of housekeeping.

Senator Boniface, the floor is yours.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you very much.

Again, thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Brookson, I feel as though we've been targeting a lot of questions your way, but I really thank you for the candour with which you've tried to answer them.

I'd like you to look at it from a perspective of hindsight. Given what you may have learned, if you were to start this exercise on day one, what would you hope for? What do you think the benefits of that would be, in terms of working with your partners?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, to the senator, I appreciate the question.

I think part of my objective in working with the policing partners is to increase awareness as to what this territory is actually about, how sensitive it is and how important the people who work here are.

I think we made quite a bit of advancement on that. Again, looking back, just to have the authority to do what I'm responsible for doing is something I wish I would have had prior to this event starting.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Do you mean authority in the context of Wellington Street itself, or perhaps, given what you had to work with at the time, enough influence to have that decision go a different way?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I think part of my disappointment is that I thought I had more influence with the policing partners than I actually did. I'll have to go back and talk with them on that.

It saddened me throughout. I was before the Liberal caucus, and I have to tell you that my heart sank when I was looking at their eyes. At the end of the day, parliamentarians are just human beings, and to suggest that people have to come to work and be under that sort of level of torment—where it's coming from is irrelevant—is something that just doesn't sit well with me. I try to do the best I can in leading the service to make sure that parliamentarians can come to work without feeling a sense of concern for their safety and well-being.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

In terms of what the committee can do and when we think of recommendations, it would seem to me that what is needed is something like an MOU that would clearly lay it out with commanders at a high enough level in the policing partners that you would be able to pick up the phone and call and the message you were trying to give was heard, and they would have a good understanding of what you do. That would be far down the road from what you were faced with when this process started. Am I correct on that?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Mr. Chair, that's absolutely correct, Senator Boniface. There were a couple of moments when I had two public order teams under the authority of the service, and that happened for the first time ever. There was a public order team from the OPP as well as one from the RCMP.

I think it was a bit of a shift, too, for those partners, as to who would have control; but I've said from the outset in working out this critical incident program for the service that I will never relinquish the authority for protecting this ground to another, even if it's a law enforcement agency. We've made leaps and bounds with respect to how serious we are and where we're at in our readiness, and that competence is starting to come into the fold. You would know better than most what it takes in that policing world and mindset to relinquish that authority over your own assets.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

They have to have confidence in you and in the resources that are leading them.

[Larry Brookson]

That's correct.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I think the committee members would be interested in any recommendations you leave for us at this table or that you think would be helpful, because when this committee finishes, you will have made some steps, and it would be very helpful for us to know whether there are other gaps as you make those steps. That would be of help.

Thank you again for your service.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you. That concludes the round of questioning.

I want to take this moment, on behalf of the committee, to thank you for your incredible public service. I know that you were put into a tumultuous time, and we certainly look forward to providing whatever supports we can from this committee on recommendations moving forward.

At this time, you are now free of your obligations here before committee. I do need about five minutes of committee time just on some housekeeping items. I want to thank you again for your attendance here.

I want to make a quick reference to members of this committee. I want to flag—not for discussion or debate—a serious concern I have as chair on scheduling regarding communications that we received both from the OPS and from the OPP about their unwillingness to appear before this committee until they are appearing in front of the judicial review.

I'm of the opinion—and I'll just state it—that I don't think it's within their purview to pick and choose the priorities. I find it to be very problematic particularly to deprioritize this committee in this way.

I'm going to leave that with the committee, and we can revisit it at a future date to get a sense for the timing. As it stands now, we're working through the scheduling. We want to make sure that we have a full work plan and witnesses lined up for future sessions in a way that will be to the benefit of this committee.

Go ahead, Ms. Bendayan.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I believe there was a suggestion that we attempt to get Mayor Watson here as quickly as possible. I was just wondering if there was any update.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

We're looking now towards the end of October.

We're in a situation in which, given the seriousness of this committee, witnesses are making a commitment and then not availing themselves. I do reference the power of this committee and our Parliament to send for people, documents and evidence, and I take that seriously. We don't have to delve into that now, but I think there's going to have to be some process for this committee if we want to get this work done in any kind of way, but waiting until after the judicial inquiry is not sufficient.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Perhaps, Mr. Chair, we don't need to park this for a future debate. I think there may be agreement in the room that the clerk will simply go back and say that this is not an acceptable justification and that the committee is insisting on their appearance.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I'm in full support of that, actually.

Do we have that as a...?