Declaration of Emergency Committee on Sept. 29th, 2022

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

I'd like to call this meeting to order and welcome everybody to the 13th meeting of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency created pursuant to the order of the House of March 2, 2022 and the Senate of March 3, 2022.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House and Senate orders.

We are having a bit of technical difficulty. I'm going to suspend the meeting for three minutes to get this set up. Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Given that time is of the essence, I will recall this meeting to order and welcome everybody to the 13th meeting of the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of Emergency created pursuant to the order of the House of March 2, 2022 and of the Senate on March 3, 2022.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to orders of the House and the Senate. Should any technical issues arise, as just happened, whether it be through interpretation, on the floor or virtually, then I would advise folks to let me know as soon as possible so that I can suspend for a few minutes to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

Witnesses should also be aware that translation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of their screen.

We have with us today Sergeant-at-Arms and corporate security officer of the House of Commons, Mr. Patrick McDonell. We have, from Parliamentary Protective Service, acting director Mr. Larry Brookson. From the Senate, we have director of corporate security, Ms. Julie Lacroix.

You will each have five minutes for opening remarks.

Mr. McDonell, we will start with you.

I should let you know that if I gently intervene, it will be because your time is up. I will also put out there that when the members have their time in the rounds of questions, if you hear the members from time to time gently intervene, it's not poor manners. They're just trying to get to the next question, so they may reclaim their time and ask the next question. Please don't take that as a personal affront to your intervention.

With that being said, we will now proceed with the opening remarks.

[Patrick McDonell, Sergeant-at-Arms and Corporate Security Officer, House of Commons]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Patrick McDonell, and I am the Sergeant‑at‑Arms for the House of Commons.

I hope the committee understands that I'll be careful speaking openly about sensitive security matters. Security matters, when discussed before the Board of Internal Economy, are legislatively mandated under the Parliament of Canada Act to be discussed in camera. Some information, if made public, could increase the vulnerability of the House of Commons security posture, the parliamentary buildings, parliamentarians and other persons within the parliamentary precinct.

As head of the Office of the Sergeant-at-Arms and Corporate Security, my team works in close collaboration with its partners to provide a secure environment for members of Parliament, employees and visitors on the Hill. Working with the Parliamentary Protective Service and the Senate corporate security directorate, we adapt our practices proactively and continuously while also responding to evolving security risks. We collaborate closely with our partners both on and off the Hill for a coordinated security approach.

I will reiterate: our primary emphasis has been to ensure the security of parliamentarians. We understand that prevention and early intervention make it possible to diminish the escalation of threats and harm.

As I mentioned, I am pleased to appear before you. However, I hope the committee can understand that I am limited in what I can say given this public format.

Thank you very much.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you for those remarks.

We will now move on to Mr. Brookson.

Mr. Brookson, you have five minutes.

[Larry Brookson, Acting Director, Parliamentary Protective Service]

Good evening, Mr. Chair, honourable senators and members of Parliament.

My name is Larry Brookson. I am the acting director for the Parliamentary Protective Service, an organization created by Parliament in 2015 as a result of legislative amendments to the Parliament of Canada Act. Our raison d'être is to provide physical security operations for the whole of the parliamentary precinct. Each day our dedicated team of protection officers and dedicated specialists proudly serve and protect parliamentarians, staff and visitors.

To achieve our objectives, we work closely with our partners in Senate corporate security and the House of Commons protective service, as well as with police and intelligence organizations. These relationships are of paramount importance to us.

Since the important work of the joint committee is focused on events and circumstances related to the government's decision to invoke the emergency measures act, I should note that PPS, as a parliamentary entity and a non-government organization, had no role in providing direction or advice to government with respect to its decision to invoke the Emergencies Act.

That said, I hope my comments contribute to the progress of your collective work.

I will be happy to answer any questions regarding the efforts of the Parliamentary Protective Service.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much.

We will now provide the floor to Ms. Lacroix.

Ms. Lacroix, you have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Julie Lacroix, Director, Corporate Security, Senate]

Good evening, senators and members of the House of Commons.

My name is Julie Lacroix. I'm the director of corporate security for the Senate of Canada. Thank you for inviting me this evening.

I'm appearing before your committee as part of your ongoing work to examine the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act.

For information, it might be helpful to provide the committee with some context as to the roles that I and corporate security play and the work we do to support the Speaker, senators, and Senate staff.

I report to the Clerk of the Senate and I'm accountable to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration—CIBA—for all corporate security matters.

I'm responsible for programs and services that range from security accreditation to business continuity management, security project management, technical and physical security systems and infrastructure, security assessments and briefings for Senate and parliamentary travel, administrative reviews and investigations, fire prevention, Senate parking and locksmith services, to name just a few.

Along with my counterpart at the House of Commons, Mr. McDonell, we represent both Speakers as co-chairs of the committee on the use of Parliament Hill, and I manage the administration of that program on behalf of both Speakers.

I am also the senior security advisor to the Speaker of the Senate and the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration on any security-related matters for which they have responsibility. However, the Senate's Corporate Security Directorate does not have the mandate to handle physical security operations on Parliament Hill. That responsibility rests with the Parliamentary Protective Service, managed by Mr. Larry Brookson.

Senators and members of the House of Commons, I want to highlight that during the convoy demonstrations in the downtown core of Ottawa, my role as director was to maintain regular communication with relevant security partners for the purpose of assisting the Senate's decision-making in respect of four key things: to ensure that access to the precinct remained unimpeded for the Speaker, senators and staff; to provide briefings, advice and guidance to the Speaker, CIBA and decision-makers; to provide regular updates on the security situation; and, when necessary, to instruct the Senate and its employees to work from home and to avoid the downtown core of Ottawa.

Finally, the committee should know that I did not receive any prior notification of the invocation of the Emergencies Act.

I will be happy to answer any questions members of the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you to all for the opening statements.

We will now open the floor to Mr. Motz for a five-minute round.

Mr. Motz, the floor is yours.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, witnesses, for being here. Most importantly, thank you for the work that you and your departments and services do for the parliamentary precinct and those who work in it.

By all accounts, the trucker convoy was organized well in advance. They reached out to city officials in attempting to coordinate well in advance, weeks in advance.

Mr. Brookson or Mr. McDonell, did either of you have any contact with organizers of the convoy itself ahead of them arriving here?

[Patrick McDonell]

I did not.

[Larry Brookson]

Nor did I.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

What about with the police service? Did you have any conversations with them in the weeks leading up to their arrival here?

[Patrick McDonell]

Larry was the contact point for the Ottawa police.

[Larry Brookson]

Yes, so there were ongoing conversations leading up, as things started to come in from information and intelligence to enable us to commence our preparations. There's always open dialogue with the partners.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Mr. McDonell, this is related to you and for you. Kevin Vickers, who is your former boss and a well-known sergeant-at-arms and a well-respected law enforcement officer of many years, has had some things to say about the convoy and the response to the convoy. I want to review some of those.

He called it the “Canadian way”. He tweeted, “We solve these things through a measured approach, #CanadianWay, dealing with public order and civil disobedience. It is a problem-solving model that includes all stakeholders...listening, education, communication, facilitation and enforcement, but it's founded upon respect and the dignity of all people. Bring these facilitators and stakeholders who have a mandate and responsibility to resolve the issue, together, sit down and try to talk to try to come up with solutions and a compromise.”

He went on to make many other comments. He tweeted that the Canadian way “involves recognizing, accommodating and reconciling differing perspectives and interests through informed, respectful debate and compromise.”

He also said that enforcement alone is always degrees of loss, a simplistic view of the rule of law, so it's naive to think that this is going to be at all resolved through enforcement.

He went on to say, “My friends there is another way. Enforcement! How is that working for you. Enforcement means degrees of losing for everyone. We are better than this Canada! Respect, dialogue, understanding [and] empathy....”

He also tweeted, “Respect actually means listening to something you'd rather not hear and listening must include the possibility of recognizing there may be a 'meaningful grievance' on the other side.”

Now, I respect the position you're in, and I'm not asking you specifically to weigh in on what could or should have been done, but these comments come from an individual I know you respect and who has a position. Can you provide any comments to us on that position and your view of the response to the protest and the invocation of the Emergencies Act?

[Patrick McDonell]

Through you, Mr. Chair, Kevin was a respected police officer. I was a police officer for 31 years, and I've met lots of colleagues and worked with many I respected, but there's always a variance of opinion, and many have expressed their opinions about different incidents and occurrences in different forms. I'll let Kevin's comments speak for themselves. I will not weigh in on them.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Fair enough. Thank you.

I will, because it appears obvious to me and to millions of Canadians that the convoy protest could have been concluded very differently from how it was concluded by the Prime Minister and his government. Rather than taking a heavy-handed approach with the invocation of the Emergencies Act, this protest could have been resolved, and significantly sooner, had the protesters only been shown some respect, offered some dignity and actually been listened to, something that maybe the Prime Minister and the ministers didn't want to hear.

Had they done that, I think they may have heard a meaningful grievance from the other side, and the situation in all probability would and could have been resolved significantly sooner, without the enforcement action.

Thank you for your comments.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much, Mr. Motz.

We will now hand the floor over to Mr. Naqvi. You have five minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. I will, of course, be addressing the witnesses through you.

Let me first of all start by also extending my gratitude to all the members of the Parliamentary Protective Service for the incredible job they do every day to keep this place safe, especially during the very difficult time during the occupation.

Let me just start broadly from the aspect of protests. We often witness peaceful protests that take place on Parliament Hill. Can you just in general terms give us the process that people have to go through in order to be able to protest on the Hill?

[Larry Brookson]

There is a process to make application for use of the Hill, as Ms. Lacroix stated in her opening remarks. That's governed through both Speakers, through her and Mr. McDonell. My only comment is that the service ensures that there are safe and open demonstrations. There are demonstrations that happen every day, and that's why the service trains itself to ensure that those who want to come to Parliament Hill can, and they can be in a safe environment to do so.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Was the process followed in the instance of the convoy protest that we are discussing in this particular committee?

[Larry Brookson]

I'm not aware of any submission of a permit request to protest during that time.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

In your experience and the experience of PPS, would you characterize the protest that we saw as safe or peaceful?

[Larry Brookson]

It had moments of concern.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Can you elaborate on that, please?