Declaration of Emergency Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

That's what I said.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

It's not necessarily yes or no, but an answer.

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you.

The conversations with the White House, with the national security adviser and with the entire intelligence apparatus in the United States are constant. My colleagues here at the table talk to their counterparts all the time.

For me, this soon into my job, to have a call saying, “We need to fix this. I need to talk to you right away,” with a person I'd not yet met was a bit unusual. It was a very collaborative call. Our American colleagues wanted to do whatever they could to assist us because the economies are so joint.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Okay. I think that's sufficient, thank you.

Mr. Fortin, you have three minutes.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Thomas, you say you were in constant communication with your American counterpart. You told us that the means available in Ontario weren't used.

Did you speak with your Ontario counterpart, the person responsible for public safety in Ontario? Did you speak with him and ask him what should be done about Wellington Street, and if he could intervene? Were there any discussions on the subject?

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you very much for the question. We had what we call tripartite calls and tables, through all the various departments that were trying to take action—through Public Safety, through Transport Canada and with the policing agencies. We tried, and you've seen the testimony from the province. We did try. We were accused of trying to dump the problem onto Ontario. We were trying to work with Ontario. Ottawa is not the district of Canada.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Did you speak with your counterpart from—

[Jody Thomas]

I don't have one directly.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You don't have one, okay.

You saw, as I did, that the barricades on Wellington Street were ultimately removed by 2,000 police officers. In your recommendations to the Prime Minister, did you tell him he should simply send police officers to Ottawa, as was done to clear Wellington Street?

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you for that question. The Ontario police act is how police are managed within Ontario. The Ottawa Police Service makes the request to the OPP.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Did you recommend that the Prime Minister intervene and send police officers to Ottawa or ask other ministers to send in police? Did you recommend the police operation to clear Wellington Street?

[Jody Thomas]

I did not make that recommendation, no.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Why not?

[Jody Thomas]

That was done through the policing channels with the RCMP commissioner, who is our liaison with police. The Prime Minister doesn't direct another level of government to send police to a certain location.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Wouldn't it have been a simpler, more respectful solution to invoke the War Measures Act, or rather the Emergencies Act?

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you.

Again, it's more complex than that. The police had been sent to assist in Ottawa. They needed a plan to execute. Every discussion came down to “How are you going to use the police officers? What are they going to be used to do? What is your tactical and strategic plan?” We were using the RCMP commissioner as our lead on that.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Mr. Fortin, I'm sorry. Your time is up. We'll have another round.

Mr. Green.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I'm going to put my questions through to Ms. Chayer. We know through a Guardian report that in the lead-up to the occupation, ITAC made a recommendation and reported to the government that there were likely going to be elements of ideologically motivated violent extremists. Is that correct?

[Marie-Hélène Chayer]

We noted in our report that there was a likelihood they would be there. ITAC doesn't do recommendations, however. We just assess—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure. Did you note them? Was it provided to you through security reports and intelligence that they were active and a part of the movement that was descending on the nation's capital?

[Marie-Hélène Chayer]

The report that you're referring to, I believe, was a non-classified report, a report that we shared with the police of jurisdiction. It's based on open source.... It was based on information that we saw in an open source.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Given the reports of a discovery today that this Coutts, armed, militia-like, for lack of better.... I'll put it to you. This group that originally was a few lone wolves now had other people involved. Was that part of your assessment? Were you aware of any ongoing investigations into this group planning to engage in this way in the lead-up to the occupation?

[Marie-Hélène Chayer]

I am not at liberty to discuss this issue.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is it something that you would prefer us to go in camera for?

[Marie-Hélène Chayer]

No. It has to do with the level of classification of those details. What I would say, though, is that, you know, my job is to assess the likelihood of a terrorist incident.