Declaration of Emergency Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Why not?

[Jody Thomas]

With “Rolling Thunder”, which occurred here in April or May, we saw that, with a proper understanding of intelligence and information, working with the convoy or protesters coming to the city, and the correct police response, in conjunction with our colleagues across the national security community, such as the team at Intersect, the Emergencies Act was not required.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Would you change your recommendation if you learned that the protesters included individuals who intended to stay on Wellington Street for several weeks?

[Jody Thomas]

Again, I think different police and municipal actions would ensure that people did not stay on Wellington Street. Certainly, you can't get to Wellington Street in the same location any longer. A different action would be taken, ahead of time, to prevent the settling in to the extent we saw in January and February.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

All right.

What would you recommend to the Prime Minister if you learned that some of those protesters might be armed?

[Jody Thomas]

If they were people of interest to CSIS, we would recommend that CSIS speak to the RCMP about that. A police action would be taken and an RCMP investigation opened. If it is a police of jurisdiction issue, I have every confidence the Ottawa Police Service would respond appropriately.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

What would you recommend to the Prime Minister if you found out that the protesters intended to move in with big trucks, as was the case a year ago, to block Wellington Street or Sparks Street, that is to say Parliament Hill?

[Jody Thomas]

Before any recommendation to the Prime Minister, we would work with the police to ensure the trucks did not stay. As we saw in Montreal, Quebec and Toronto—where they did copycat convoys—when the trucks were not allowed to park, they did not have the same problem.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the actual cause of the problem in Ottawa was that the police did a poor job or didn't do their job at all.

[Jody Thomas]

I'm not a policing expert. The police are doing their own review, and the inquiry will speak to the policing aspects of this. However, in cities where the trucks were not allowed to stop, they did not have the same problem.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

If faced with the same situation today, how would you, as national security advisor, advise the Prime Minister in view of the police's inaction and poor strategies?

[Jody Thomas]

Would this be about a future event?

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Yes.

[Jody Thomas]

We would be very much engaged with the RCMP and Intersect, and our colleagues in Public Safety and other departments, to ensure that the proper level of response and plan was in place, as we saw with the “Rolling Thunder” event and on July 1 of this year.

I think the kind of protest, convoy or manifestation, whatever you want to call it, that can come and is willing to stay is now differently understood, and the response would be different.

[Mike MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, for a bit more context, one of the successes—

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I only have 30 seconds left, Mr. MacDonald.

[Mike MacDonald]

I'll be very brief.

One of the successes with “Rolling Thunder” was, in fact, the role of the city and the decisions it took, which the Ottawa police enforced.

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Mr. Fortin, I'm sorry. Your time is up.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Go ahead, Mr. Green.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Ms. Thomas, you described the traditional definition of a terror cell: people who are ideologically motivated—although you said foreign, post-9/11—but controlled by people who call the shots to people on the ground, who would then carry it out.

Based on the information that, you're suggesting, you just found out today, would you not consider the action at Coutts to be in line with the traditional definition of a terror cell?

[Jody Thomas]

Thank you for that question.

It's a very important question, Mr. Green. I don't know enough about it at this point to answer. I only know what we've all read in the media.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

But you are aware that they found significant.... Here's the challenge I have with, I'm going to say, the underplaying of what happened at Coutts: the intention to murder RCMP officers, the stashes of weapons found and the pipe bombs.

I'll reference an interaction I had with somebody based on intelligence, because this really is about quality of intelligence and the bias that remains in policing. There was a notation about ISIS as potentially being a threat, without any reference to Christian dominionism, to white supremacy and to the growing militia movements that we have here. Why is it that the language of terrorism is only prescribed to people of colour, to religious minorities, and is never rightly identified with what I deem to be one of the greatest threats in this country, quite frankly, which is ethnonationalism and white supremacy?

Put another way, given what we're hearing now—that this was a cell that was taking direction from somebody—I'll put it to you in another way to give you the opportunity to perhaps revisit your answer: How does that not meet the definition of a traditional terror cell?

[Jody Thomas]

I have the terrorist expert beside me, so I'll—