Declaration of Emergency Committee on April 26th, 2022

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

I'd like to keep asking you questions, but my time is up.

I will therefore resume my role as chair.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

No, I allowed some latitude for him to finish answering the question.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Mr. Green, you have the floor for three minutes.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to go back to some of the definitions. You'll note that in the definition of a national emergency, underneath paragraph 3(a) and (b) there's an “and” clause that reads, “and that cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada.”

We've heard today that expert advisers advised the government that it did not have sufficient authorities, yet there's been pretty wide reporting on perhaps there being insufficient will on the part of our public safety police.

I note that among the reasons given for the public order emergency was that convoy supporters, formerly employed in law enforcement and the military, had appeared alongside organizers and may have been providing them with logistical and security advice, which posed operational challenges. This is noted. I ask that because in section five, where it is about the potential for an increased level of unrest and violence, it is noted that there were individuals who support ideologically motivated violent extremism. This is a very serious issue to me in this particular case.

My question, through you to the honourable minister, is this. In noting that there were members of ideologically motivated violent extremist groups, and that convoy supporters had formerly employed law enforcement and military people within the organizational capacity of the occupation, would the minister agree that there could be, and evidence of, ideologically motivated elements within our law enforcement and the military?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I would begin by pointing out that first, with regard to the threat, as I mentioned during my introduction there was a rhetoric that was ideologically motivated and that led to—

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Mr. Chair, with specificity, through you, respectfully, to the minister, we have people who are coming from the Prime Minister's security detail, Joint Task Force 2 members, and none of this, by the way, captured within the declaration. I'm going to put my final question through you, Mr. Chair, to Director Vigneault from CSIS.

Did CSIS at any time provide the government with information that would have met the threshold outlined in section 2 of the CSIS Act?

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Green, for your question.

I would say that part of the Emergencies Act refers to the CSIS definition of violence, of terrorism, but the information from CSIS is but one of the elements that the Governor in Council would consider to make its assessment.

CSIS has been involved throughout the demonstrations and the protests to carry out our mandate and we have been providing advice to the government—

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Is it yes or no?

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Your time is up, Mr. Green.

[The Joint Chair, NDP, Matthew Green]

Did CSIS provide evidence to the ministry that met the threshold of section 2 under the CSIS Act, yes or no?

[David Vigneault]

I cannot respond with yes or no, Mr. Green. I just have to say that we have provided information to the Governor in Council.

Thank you.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you. The time is unfortunately over. I feel I'm being rude interrupting you, but those are the rules.

Senator Carignan has the floor for three minutes.

[Claude Carignan]

Thank you.

This will be easy, Minister. I'm going to ask you a question that MP Alistair MacGregor put to you at the meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on February 25 of this year. I'm going to ask you exactly the same question, which you didn't answer at that time:

…Minister, before February 14, did you or the Prime Minister receive any requests from the Conservative Government of Ontario and Premier Doug Ford, to invoke the federal Emergencies Act?

That's a question you can answer with a yes or a no.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Senator, I contacted the Premier of Ontario to discuss the situation on the ground in Ottawa and across Ontario. I'm not the only government member who contacted the Premier of Ontario. I even spoke with my counterpart, Minister Jones, the Solicitor General of Ontario. So there were very instructive conversations to…

[Claude Carignan]

You aren't answering my question.

I want to know if they told you they couldn't take it any more and had neither the resources nor the authority to cope with the situation, and if they asked you to save them by invoking the Emergencies Act.

Did anyone request that, yes or no?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Senator, I assure you there was a lot of cooperation between the Province of Ontario and the federal government to ensure we restored public safety in our communities.

[Claude Carignan]

If I understand you correctly, the answer is no.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We cooperated extensively with the Province of Ontario before and even after invoking the Emergencies Act.

[Claude Carignan]

You can try to squeeze water from a stone, but you have to keep hitting it.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Mr. Carignan.

Senator Boniface has the floor for three minutes.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Gwen Boniface]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to come back to the jurisdictional issues, because I want to have it very clear in my mind on two fronts: first from the blockades here in Ottawa from the time it went from a legal occupation to an illegal one, or from a protest to an occupation—in an illegal sense—and then, second, and perhaps the commissioner or someone else may be able to give more details, on the question of the role of the province.

I appreciate the collaboration that you refer to, although I remember reading—and this may have been reported inaccurately—that the minister for public safety in Ontario wasn't present at some of the meetings that took place when these discussions were taking place. I assume from this that it meant there was nobody from the province showing up for those. I'd just like to confirm that was an accurate reporting—number one.

Then the number two point really is, when you move at least from an observation perspective of a protest to an illegal occupation, when that threshold moves, how did that change in terms of resources required or asked for at the city and provincial levels?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

In the first instance, I want to assure you and all members that there was good communication with the Province of Ontario, including my counterpart, Minister Jones, during the blockades.

We wanted to make sure that we were staying in contact so that we could support our respective efforts to provide law enforcement with whatever additional tools they needed on the ground, specifically the Ottawa Police Service, who, as you heard throughout and earlier in my testimony, were overwhelmed at times and significantly so as a result of the large number of individuals who were participating in the occupation in Ottawa. There was good collaboration there.

I would say, in terms of the second part of your question around the pivotal moments, we were listening very carefully and watching very closely how public safety was deteriorating and eroding as a result of the surge in individuals who came to Parliament Hill.

It became very clear that they were not going to leave. They began to put up fixtures. They began to become firmly entrenched, not only on Wellington Street but—

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Thank you, Minister and Senator. I'm sorry, but your time is up.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Certainly those were the factors we were looking at.

[The Joint Chair, Bloc, Rhéal Fortin]

Since we have some 10 or 12 minutes left, I suggest we continue in the order of the first round but allot one minute per speaker instead of five. That way we can use all the time the minister has made available to us.

As that seems to suit everyone, I give the floor to the first speaker, the Conservative Party representative, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz, you have the floor for one minute.