Electoral Reform Committee on Sept. 30th, 2016

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here today. I am pleased to be with you. This is the first time I have come to Yellowknife.

I will not go back over what will happen to the very large districts. Since I am a member of a district with an area of 11 square kilometers, this subject is somewhat beyond my understanding. However, I am very pleased that you have come here with proposals.

The committee has a mandate to study a new voting system, a new way to ensure that voters' ballots, once placed in a box, result in the election of MPs and thus in representation in Parliament. You are also right to say that the present system creates absurdities and incoherences and betrays the will of citizens to the extent that their choices are not represented.

A very big red wave broke over the Maritimes and the Atlantic region last year. The Liberal Party—so much the better for Mr. DeCourcey and his colleagues—won all 32 seats in the Maritimes. However, I do not think they received 100% of the votes. They got 61%, which is very good.

The fact remains that 40% of people voted for the Conservative Party, the NDP and the Green Party. However, those 40% are not represented in Parliament. Their voices are not being heard there. The situation is somewhat the same on Vancouver Island, where the New Democrats and Ms. May occupy the seats, but where 20% of people voted for the Liberal Party and 20% for the Conservative Party. However, those people are not represented in Parliament.

Consequently, I am pleased that you are seeking solutions that involve greater proportionality. The role of Parliament is to reflect society and people's will.

Ms. Balakrishnan, you raised the list issue. The issue of the list, which is entirely legitimate, comes up in a mixed-member proportional voting system. You do not seem to be in favour of a closed list so that voters can have more control and make their own choices. I would like to hear the views of Ms. Little and Mr. Robinson on the subject.

Would you opt for an open list or a closed list in a mixed-member proportional voting system?

Ms. Little, go ahead, please.

[Lois Little]

No. I don't have a position.

Certainly the Council of Canadians has been pretty flexible on this. Our position has always been that we want to ensure that rigour is brought to bear on all the candidates, whether they come as individuals or from a party. We also want to ensure that there is no manipulation or buying or selling of that representation. From the legislative point of view it is so important to us to make sure that there is a system that ensures rigour and fairness.

[Andrew Robinson]

At Alternatives North, we didn't take a position on open lists or closed lists. I'll point out that a dual member proportional system, with two members in each riding, gets rid of the problem of the lists because it uses the other candidates who are running. They are selected as the second MP, depending on how the proportionality works out in the region. I think we lean towards open list or a dual member system.

Thanks.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

Fears that a new voting system may be complex are often cited. There can be no doubt that the present model is the simplest. Everyone understands how it works. Primary school children could use it.

A mixed-member proportional system involves two votes, one for the local member and the other for the party, which guarantees proportionality. I think it is quite easy to explain. It is not very complex.

However, do you think the government should conduct an education, communication and awareness campaign if we change voting systems in order to explain what the switch from one system to another entails?

Since the various voting system choices are not often included in the material taught in schools, people know little about the subject.

[Lois Little]

I could speak to that.

I think it's not complex, and we should never underestimate the intelligence of our citizens. Having said that, though, we should expect that Elections Canada has a very active role in educating the population about the whole electoral process and the system. That role has been diminished with the unfair elections act. We have people who think they're electing the prime minister—that whole Americanization thing. Again, I'm back to legislation that really enables that to happen.

We have people here in the Northwest Territories...the way we vote in our MLAs is akin to the mixed member system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

Now we will hear from Mr. Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, ladies, sir.

I am going to ask you some questions that may be gut-wrenching, but I will be interested in the answers you give me. That is why I am asking them.

Ms. Little and Mr. Robinson, I would appreciate a personal answer if you do not have a mandate from your organization.

I will begin with you, Mr. Robinson. You said you would like to have the three current members for the three territories, plus three more members who would be elected, again for all three territories, under a proportional voting system. Is that correct?

[Andrew Robinson]

Yes, that is correct.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

If we lower that number to a single MP elected by proportional voting, there would be four members in all, one for each territory plus a fourth to introduce an element of proportionality for all three territories. Do you think that situation would be preferable to the current one?

[Andrew Robinson]

If I understood correctly, you're asking if we would have three directly elected members, one for each territory, plus just one more for proportionality.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That is it. Would that be a good idea?

[Andrew Robinson]

I think it's obvious that the fourth one would jump around, depending on very small changes in the vote, because you'd get three in, and then which party gets the fourth is not very easy, to be sure. It's better than nothing, but the proportionality is not very good.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Now I have a gut-wrenching question. Then I will put these questions to you, ladies. If you did not have an additional seat, and if the Canadian federation switched to a proportional system and the three territories kept their three seats without getting an additional one, would you prefer that they be by district, as is currently the case, or that they be pooled to create a proportional system for all the northern territories?

[Andrew Robinson]

That's a difficult decision.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I warned you.

[Andrew Robinson]

I would prefer to share three and go with more proportionality, but it would be very passionately opposed by a lot of other northerners who feel they require their own MP.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That is good.

I would like to hear from Ms. Balakrishnan.

[Janaki Balakrishnan]

Thank you.

We have already heard from our Minister of Justice, and Dennis Bevington who represented this territory for 10 years. They know very well how complex this territory is. As I have listed, there are many regions, many languages, many cultures, and so on. I have sheets, which I've not—

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

That is why I said it was a gut-wrenching question.

[Janaki Balakrishnan]

Bringing one person in common for three territories will not work favourably for them, unless you have local representatives for each territory. Since I am speaking on NWT, I suggest only local representatives for each region.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Consequently, if we switched to a proportional system and the northern territories unfortunately did not get more MPs—that is not at all my intention—you would prefer to keep a member for each territory and for the provinces to have a proportional system, would you not?

[Janaki Balakrishnan]

With one member, we cannot have a proportional system, first of all, and in order to make the proportionality while considering that all parties or at least a few parties represent these territories, then we should have more than one local representative.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

All right, thank you.

Ms. Little, please go ahead.

[Lois Little]

I think that Dennis Bevington put it quite nicely. We don't want to be seen as different. We are part of this country, and everybody should be treated in the same way.

I think he offers a really interesting idea in terms of regions of common interest. We have lots in common with the northern parts of the provinces. I think we need to think outside the box and look at proportionality in those terms.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

All right, thank you.

The answers you have given me show how attached you are to a reform of the proportional system. That is impressive.

Thank you.