Environment Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's right.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

No. No country has.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'd like to clarify, Minister, if I could, what you mean by “beyond Kyoto”. When you say we're going to join international talks and measures that go beyond Kyoto, are you proposing that Canada achieve deeper greenhouse gas reductions than the Kyoto targets for the 2008 to 2012 period?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

When we say “beyond Kyoto”, I think we mean that at the end of 2012 there won't be an international convention on climate change. Certainly it was strongly Canada's view that we shouldn't wait until 2012 and then begin to have discussions that would lead to negotiations.

I think Canada is very engaged with the Gleneagles dialogue that began when the United Kingdom had the presidency of the G8. They invited the other five emerging economies in. I think there'll be a significant amount of work done between the meetings that were held in Gleneagles, chaired by Prime Minister Blair, to the discussions we had in Potsdam. That will lead up to the G8 summit in Germany later this spring.

I think many people are optimistic and hope to see some fruition, some continuation of those G8 dialogues leading up to the Japanese presidency.

We're not the only act in town. The United Kingdom takes some action; the European Union takes some action. I think the G8 Gleneagles dialogue, with G8+5, is probably the greatest potential for bridging the gap between the industrialized nations and the emerging economies.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So when you say “beyond Kyoto”, then, Minister, what you really mean is that the government plans to go entirely beyond Kyoto, as in skip over the 2008 to 2012 period and not require a reduction in total greenhouse gas emissions until some time after 2012. Is that what you mean?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Not at all.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So let me clarify, then. Can you tell the committee and Canadians who are watching—other than repeating the phrase “beyond Kyoto”—whether or not you support meeting Canada's Kyoto greenhouse gas reduction obligations?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I believe the Kyoto Protocol was an initial first step on reducing greenhouse gas emissions globally. I think—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

So you do support it?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Let me answer the question.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

But you do or you don't?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Let me answer the question.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Well, I need an answer; I don't need words.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Well, you keep throwing questions at me, sir. I'm prepared to answer the questions. You get to ask the questions; I get to answer them.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Fair enough, give me the answer.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I think there was unanimity at the G8+5 that we need a protocol, an international global plan, that goes beyond 2012, both in timeline and in emissions reductions. Canada strongly supports that, and we want to work with the developing countries and the industrialized economies on a process that will lead to further greenhouse gas reductions beyond the Kyoto Protocol. It's very important for Canada—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You'll forgive me, Minister, I can't get an answer from the question I put to you. Do you support meeting Canada's Kyoto greenhouse gas reduction obligations? Maybe this way—yes or no?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I support continuing efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, you bet your boots I do.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay. That's a no.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Well, why do I have to answer the questions here? I'll just let you answer them.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Let me give you this quote from the Toronto Star. You said, “the initiatives we're going to roll out are going to be among the strongest in the world for the next five years”. That was March 18. Can you offer us a brief list of those countries you feel the initiatives you are about to announce will better when it comes to the fight against climate change? Because you said it.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

On a five-year calendar, on the 2007 to 2012 compartmentalized plans, I know that in Canada, like many countries, we're playing catch-up. Many countries, while signatories to Kyoto, didn't have a substantial amount of megatonnes of greenhouse gases to reduce. For example, for Germany, going back to 1990, the east joined the west, so therefore there wasn't actually a significant number of megatonnes required to be reduced. Decisions made in France with respect to nuclear energy, obviously, were very positive for France. Decisions to close down coal mines made in the 1980s certainly yielded not insignificant opportunities for Britain in this.

What I see is that between 2007 and 2012, under the plans that we're putting the final touches on with respect to industrial regulations, Canada will be reducing more megatonnes actively in our plan than I suspect most countries in the world.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

You're not able to tell us which countries you're actually comparing us to when you say that we're going to be among the strongest in the next five years.

Just shifting gears for a second, can you tell us, because you've often spoken about trading systems—it's a specific question, but you've had many months now to get on top of this—in your view, how effectively can a domestic greenhouse gas trading system work? How well can it function in the absence of hard, absolute caps for reductions in greenhouse gases?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We're going to be coming forward in short order with our plan on industrial regulations. I think trading can play a role in that.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Can we do it without hard caps?