Environment Committee on May 16th, 2007

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

If I might finish--to allow parliamentarians to get the full exposure of what is going on with the two line departments charged with giving action to a plan, which is the number one issue for the next century. That's exactly what transpired here.

So, for the record, let it be known, Mr. Chair, that you unilaterally decided to conduct the process this way, and you're now seeing that there are a number of members who are concerned about the fact that we don't want to lose our good guests from Environment Canada, as they have a lot to offer, and there are more questions—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Well, Mr. McGuinty, I do want to address our witnesses to see if they can stay. Certainly, I've been around here long enough to see how the previous government treated the witnesses and how we were treated in official opposition. We can talk about that later.

Mr. Bigras, please.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If there is one thing that we must not do in this climate change action plan, it is to take action on a silo basis. If we do not want to do this, we have to ensure that the Department of Environment and the Department of Natural Resources sit around the same table. It seems to me that this is important. We cannot talk about objectives to reduce greenhouse gases on the one hand and, on the other hand, set this issue aside and have another discussion with the Department of Natural Resources about big industrial emitters or energy policy.

It seems to me that there must be some integration between the Department of Natural Resources and Environment Canada. I would like to ask Natural Resources Canada some questions. How do we go about asking certain industrial sectors to reduce greenhouse gases and how is all of that integrated into the objectives of greenhouse gas reduction as set out in the climate change action plan?

I am not trying to blame you, Mr. Chairman. I am not saying that you did not do your homework. I think that you have done what you could. Nevertheless, if we are to have a very integrated approach, it seems to me that representatives from both departments should sit down together. This is not some attempt at confrontation with each other, but it is rather to better understand how Natural Resources Canada fits in with the proposals made by Environment Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Well, Mr. Bigras, my intention is to ask the witnesses to stay for the next hour, if I'd get an opportunity to do that.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Mr. Warawa, very briefly, please.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I see the clock is ticking and the next group of witnesses is here. We've done it on a regular basis, Mr. Chair, dealing with a topic and then moving to the next topic and the next group of witnesses. It's a regular occurrence here.

My question to you, or to the clerk through you, is when was this agenda sent out?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Justin Vaive]

The first notice was sent out last Friday, and then as names became available from the departments, the names were added to the subsequent amended notices of meetings.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

And that's when I received it, Chair, on Friday, and it was very clearly laid out that there would be one hour for each. We're now five days later and we're hearing that they woke up. That is the suggestion.

Chair, what happened a couple of committee meetings ago--and I have to calm down because I get quite frustrated with the antics that are being played here--is we had a long-term plan of what we were going to do for future business and that got hijacked, and now we find ourselves.... When the members refuse to come to a briefing--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

If I can interrupt, Mr. Warawa, first of all, I found yesterday's meeting most helpful. We were talking about solutions to climate change, which seems to me a very positive thing to do.

I would like to ask our witnesses about their availability. I know you were asked to be here for the hour. We do have Natural Resources people ready to answer questions as it relates to this. Of course, we have two more departments here tomorrow.

Are you available for half an hour or for part of the next time, Ms. Cléroux?

[Cécile Cléroux]

Yes, we can stay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I would ask Natural Resources to come forward then, please.

I would ask the members to please try to emphasize the fact that Natural Resources is here to answer questions. If you need reference to Environment Canada, please take advantage of that, but let's try to focus on Natural Resources, which is exactly what I understood that Mr. McGuinty had asked for, to have the four departments here. So we're now going to focus on Natural Resources.

Mr. Brown is here, and I will ask Mr. Brown to begin his presentation, please.

[Howard Brown, Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources]

Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize--

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

What about my question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

I'm sorry, you lost it.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Chairman, you want to cut off debate and not allow more questions, and you're trying to avoid as much as possible—

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Let's get all the questions we can, but let's not waste any time.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Then let's carry on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

You can be the first questioner if that's the agreement of your group, but let's let Mr. Brown present and then we'll go to the Liberals for ten minutes.

Mr. Brown.

[Howard Brown]

Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize. I feel a little bit like somebody who's come to a birthday party without a present, but I wasn't aware that we had been asked to do a presentation, and apparently my staff were unaware as well. The upside, of course, is that it does leave more time for discussion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Wonderful.

[Howard Brown]

Maybe I could also say at the start that our area of expertise is on the energy efficiency programs, the ecoENERGY science and technology, and the ecoENERGY renewables programs.

I would be happy to answer questions in detail on those programs or at least to commit to getting back to you where we don't have the details at hand.

I would be happy to try to answer questions about the regulations, but as the committee is aware, our colleagues at Environment Canada are the lead on that, and I do not want to take a chance at misleading the committee by speculating as to what an answer may be. So it may be that on many of those questions, if you want to ask my view on the regulatory system, I'll have to simply say that I'm not an expert on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Brown. You just made your presentation, and that's great.

We now have ten minutes for the first round, and Mr. Regan will begin, with Mr. Godfrey sharing your time.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank Mr. Brown for his brevity.

Mr. Chairman, I noted Mr. Warawa's comment that much of the information would have been available if this briefing had taken place, of course, after the announcement was made, but not the economic modelling, obviously, and not the analysis that was the foundation for this plan. It's not available to parliamentarians. Obviously this is a policy. We've heard that it's a policy, and of course the minister determines the policy. What we're seeing here, under the minister's policy, is that the public has no right to examine or challenge the basis for the claims made by the government, by the departments, in relation to this plan. That's a little hard to accept. If that's the government's idea of accountability and openness, it leaves a lot to be desired.

I want to ask about the briefings, the lock-ups that were held prior to the announcement, which was refused to members of Parliament. Did any of the stakeholder groups--the NGOs, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, any of the oil and gas companies--or other stakeholders have access to the economic modelling and analysis?

Both your departments were involved, so I'd like to ask you both to answer.

[Cécile Cléroux]

The economic analysis has been done by Environment Canada. Nobody got more information than the backgrounder that I was referring to earlier, which was made available to all of you the day of the announcement.