Evidence of meeting #59 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cécile Cléroux  Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment
Mike Beale  Director General, Strategic Priorities, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment
Alex Manson  Special Advisor, Climate Change Policy, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of the Environment
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive
Howard Brown  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Carol Buckley  Director General, Office of Energy Efficiency, Department of Natural Resources

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

John Godfrey Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I have two minutes. Well, in that case, let me ask....

I'm going to go back to Mr. McGuinty then.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Brown, let me put to you the questions I put to your colleagues from Environment Canada.

Did NRCan conduct any economic analysis with respect to this plan before it was released?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

What input did NRCan have in devising this plan?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Howard Brown

We were consulted, along with other departments, with some frequency as the plan was being developed. Rather than characterizing it as fulsome or frequent or substantial, I did check my agenda and I counted 11 meetings at the ADM level through January and February--so roughly over two weeks--and then through March there were additional meetings as well. Then, in addition to that, there were joint ministerial meetings with people from industries.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Let me put a last question to the panel, if I could, Mr. Chair.

There are two directives. The cabinet directive on law-making came into effect in 1999, which includes, of course, the proposal of regulations. It replaced the 1981 directive on the preparation of legislation. It requires that the clerk at PCO examine the draft regulation with the deputy minister of Justice Canada. That's number one. I'd like to know whether that occurred before this plan was released.

Secondly, there's a cabinet directive on the environmental assessment of policy, plan, and program proposals. This requires a mandatory conducting of a strategic environmental assessment on any policy, plan, or program that is submitted to a minister or a cabinet for approval. This is a full socio-economic analysis—social, economic, and environmental analysis—that is usually done in partnership with the four line departments that were asked to come and brief us, as parliamentarians.

Can anybody tell us this? Were both of those documents, were both of those processes fulfilled before this plan was made public, with great fanfare at a considerable expense?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cécile Cléroux

The first one could not be followed because what we do publish is a regulatory framework and not the draft regulation. The intention is to start publishing the draft regulations for each of the sectors in spring 2008. We will have to realize all of those detailed analyses before we're going to be able to get approval to go ahead with the publication of the draft regulations.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

So 18 months after the government was elected, we don't have the cabinet directive on the environmental assessment of policy, plan, and program proposals completed, and we don't have the first hurdle completed that flows from the cabinet directive on law-making. Is that right?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cécile Cléroux

You asked first about the question of the regulation. We're not in the world yet—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

So 18 months later the first one is not done. Okay.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cécile Cléroux

We're not in the world,yet of draft regulation.

The second one, the environmental assessment, has been done. We have done the economic analysis, we have done the health and benefit analysis, and this is the information we have provided you.

The $6 billion benefit that we have talked to you about in the deck, as well as in answering questions, is exactly the evaluation we are talking about.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

I believe Mr. Bigras and Mr. Lussier are going to share time.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I would like to tell you how disappointed I am that there were no presentations made by Natural Resources Canada. I am not blaming Mr. Brown, but it seems to me that it would have been crucial to hear a presentation made by Natural Resources Canada, however...

According to the National Energy Board site, for 2005, the oil sands sector produced 1.1 million barrels per day. It is estimated that by 2015, 3 million barrels will be produced per day.

What percentage of Canada's total emissions comes from the oil sands sector? Is it 20%, 30%, 40%?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Policy Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Howard Brown

The figure that sticks in my mind is roughly 4% to 5%. Today that figure would grow over time as the oil sands expanded.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

You therefore admit that this industrial sector is a big greenhouse gas emitter. Mr. Brown, this is a concept that you are very familiar with, because this was one of the jobs that you held when you were assistant deputy minister for big industrial emitters. Given the projected increase in growth, which will naturally result in an increase of greenhouse gases, what is the forecast increase in greenhouse gas emissions for this industrial sector?

4:50 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Priorities, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Mike Beale

The emission projections for the oil sands sector are 64 megatonnes in 2010, 80 megatonnes in 2015, and 93 megatonnes in 2020. Those are business-as-usual emission projections from Natural Resources Canada.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Would I be mistaken in saying that a 15%-reduction in greenhouse gas emission intensity in the oil sands sector would represent an absolute increase in greenhouse gas emissions of 179%? Given that this sector is a big industrial emitter and is responsible, to a large extent, for Canada's emissions, how do you reconcile this reality with the fact that Canada must reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by 2020? Is there not a contradiction between the fact that there is a projected increase—oil production from the oil sands is going to triple—and the fact that you are telling us that we will reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 20%? Is there not somewhat of a contradiction between the forecast and the overall objectives that you have set? What model are you using that allows you to state that we will reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 20% when, according to the facts, we are projecting an increase of nearly 180% in absolute greenhouse gas emissions?

4:50 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Priorities, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Mike Beale

The projections we used from Natural Resources Canada are the source of the emission reductions in the table of the estimates we showed you. They result from applying the target in our plan to those projections. In absolute terms we estimate that from the oil sands sector there would be a reduction in emissions of about 4 megatonnes in 2010 from projected levels, about 9 megatonnes in 2015, and about 16 megatonnes in 2020. In 2020 that would amount to a 17% reduction from what emissions would otherwise be. If we did nothing they would be at x, and because of the plan they would be 17% less from the oil sands sector.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

In your opinion, despite an increase in production, it is anticipated that we will reduce greenhouse gas emissions in this sector. Do you really believe that we will reduce greenhouse gas emissions? I feel that they will increase instead.

4:50 p.m.

Director General, Strategic Priorities, Environmental Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Mike Beale

We would reduce them from the level at which they would otherwise be. This is the concept of the business-as-usual projection.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

This is difficult to understand.

On page 3 of your regulatory framework, you indicate that, in order to achieve the reduction objectives for the oil sands sector, you will gradually eliminate the deduction for accelerated depreciation for oil sands development. Have you done an economic analysis of the government public effort that such a commitment would entail? You talked about rebalancing the tax system in order to encourage investments in the oil sands sector and other clean renewable energy sectors. You are therefore proposing a gradual elimination of depreciation deductions. Have you done any analysis of the public effort that that would entail? What are the projected expenditures?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Madame Cléroux.

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Environment Stewardship Branch, Department of the Environment

Cécile Cléroux

This is a measure set out in the 2007 budget and it is up to our colleagues from Finance Canada, who will be appearing before you tomorrow, to provide this information.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Mills

Mr. Lussier.

May 16th, 2007 / 4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. Cléroux, during the presentation and while answering a question, Mr. Beale consulted a graph. I would say that he even showed it, because I saw it. Could you table this graph?