Evidence of meeting #38 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was water.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Director, International Relations Program, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I haven't seen anything yet.
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
I can look for the response to that and provide it in writing.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
My question is also addressed to Mr. Chastko.
Mr. Chastko, in your paper, you say that you do not believe that governments have played a passive role. Therefore, they have played a very active role in oil sands development.
Is it your understanding that governments have been doing the same thing as oil companies? Have they moved in on any area where they should not have invested? What is your opinion?
5:10 p.m.
Director, International Relations Program, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Mr. Lussier, I think that may be a slight error in terms of the translation. The sentence that begins in that part of the presentation begins, “I hope this is not taken to mean that the government at both the federal and provincial levels played a passive role, because they certainly did not”. In fact, I would agree with you that federal and provincial governments played a very active role, and arguably an important role in terms of development.
In this sense, what I argue, and what I've argued before, is that it is because of this partnership between the public and the private sectors that we really see the development of this industry having reached the stage it is at today.
I apologize for the error in the translation.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
That's fine.
Ms. Killingsworth, in your deck, there is a map of Alberta showing what is identified as the “Carbonate Triangle”. But, I don't know what the “Carbonate Triangle” is in either French or English.
How is it that Fort McMurray and Cold Lake are outside of that triangle?
5:10 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
The triangle you're referring to is the carbonate triangle, in which the bitumen is trapped in limestone rocks rather than in the sands and the stones. There's a particular geological formation in this triangle where the oil is trapped in limestone rocks, whereas the oil in the Fort McMurray area is trapped in sands or sandstones.
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
It's called the carbonate triangle.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Who defined that triangle? Was it the Alberta Government?
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
It's a geological formation, and I'd be happy to get a better geological definition on that for you.
5:15 p.m.
Bloc
Marcel Lussier Bloc Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Ms. Killingsworth, on one page of your deck, you say that governments are anticipating oil revenues of $123 billion in the coming years.
How much money will the oil companies be making from that production? If you know what the government revenues are, you must also know what the oil company revenues are.
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
I don't have that data at my fingertips, but I can provide that to you. Again, that was coming from the Canadian Energy Research Institute study, so I will get back to you on that.
June 16th, 2008 / 5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I really appreciate the opportunity today to be here, as it is my constituency. I appreciate the witnesses coming forward. I actually have lived in Fort McMurray since 1967, when there were approximately 1,500 people, so I've seen some tremendous changes.
I would like to agree with Mr. Godfrey that leadership is all about knowing, and indeed about knowing the facts and the truth, and not about fear-mongering. And I don't want you to think that I'm picking on you, as one of the witnesses, at all, but my mother is a historian from Fort McMurray, and she would feel that I wasn't doing my job if I didn't point out the first commercial application of oil sands, and that was actually back in the 17th and 18th centuries, when, as Peter Pond has identified, aboriginals used it for patching canoes. I wouldn't want to lose the opportunity to set the record straight on that. Maybe you want to change your book. I would certainly be prepared to allow my name to stand on that particular fact.
If I understand it correctly, surface mining is in essence taking a big shovel, digging into the earth, removing everything—especially the contaminants that are in it, such as crude oil, sulphur, coke, nitrogen, and calcium—taking all of those contaminants and the earth, putting them into a big bowl, in essence taking soap and hot water, removing the contaminants, putting the earth back where it was before, and reclaiming the land with bushes, trees, and shrubs.
Does that pretty much describe the surface mining opportunities in northern Alberta at this stage?
5:15 p.m.
Director, International Relations Program, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I'm sorry, who is the question to?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
It's to both of you, or either. I'm just trying to simplify and--
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
Yes, I think that's a very simple summary.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
In a simple summary, that's how it works. In fact it's not just oil that comes out of the ground in that area; there are tremendous amounts of by-products, such as sulphur, coke, nitrogen, calcium, etc. Is that correct?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I just want to point out to Mr. McGuinty that on page 20 of “The Oil Sands: Toward Sustainable Development”, a report of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources, most of his questions are indeed answered. It's the March 2007 report, which was done by that committee. Most of your questions are answered on page 20.
I would like to say that one of the oil sands plants in the area I think has more patents than any other corporation in Canada. They are always looking for new technology.
To answer your question as well, currently I understand that one of the tailings ponds has gone through test projects to reclaim it, and those test projects were successful. I think Syncrude was the corporation that did that.
I'm interested in water reduction. My understanding is that the Athabasca River basin--which of course the city uses for water for their citizens, and many pulp mills use it, as well as many other cities--is seeing a reduction in the flow of the Athabasca River. My understanding of the reduction of flow is primarily as a result of the Athabasca glacier, the icefields shrinking, and less snowpack in the mountains. Is that fair to say?
5:15 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
I apologize, I'm not an expert in that area, but I could get back to you with a more definitive answer.
5:15 p.m.
Director, International Relations Program, University of Calgary, As an Individual
I'm a historian, but I'm not entirely sure, sir.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
As a historian, you obviously know what it was 20 years ago and what it is today.
As well, I understand there are some further miscommunications and fear-mongering that goes on.
There are two types of water uses in the oil sands, are there not? There's water that's used for a cooling process, where they can actually put the water back into the rivers. It's not contaminated, because it was used to cool down things. Then there's the other type, which is used in the process itself. There's only one oil sands plant that is allowed to put any water back from that processing.
My understanding is that any water that contacts open oil sands has to be kept. In fact my understanding is that Syncrude recycles 100% of its water, Albian recycles 100% of its water, and CNRL recycles 100% of its water. When I say “recycles 100% of its water”, I'm talking about the water that's actually used for the oil sands process. The rest is kept in the tailings ponds.
Now that we have the technology to reclaim those tailings ponds, it appears we'll be able to put back not just 100% of the water they're using, but also the tailings ponds water. Is that correct, based on the assumption that the technology is there?And it is.
5:20 p.m.
President, Canadian Centre for Energy Information
Yes, you're correct.
