Evidence of meeting #17 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shipping.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I'm not saying there are minimal penalties. I'm saying they are quite severe penalties in the bill.
Bloc
Bernard Bigras Bloc Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Very well.
I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I also want to thank the three of you for coming to spend some time with me. I really appreciate it. I wish we could have had more time to outline your concerns. If it can give you any level of assurance, our committee will be going through all the amendments with the lawyers and the staff of the departments, and it will give us an opportunity to further examine them about inconsistencies in law and so forth. We need to hear more from you, so that we can then pursue these issues with the Department of Justice.
We did have a good discussion last night about your concern about absolute liability. I have to confess I'm still not convinced that what's happening is an absolute liability. I have noted that they have changed the two provisions. I do look forward to asking the government lawyers why they are now adding the “and”--the “master and the chief engineer”.
I would like to ask this question, and anyone can answer it for me. What is the relationship on the ship between the master and the chief engineer?
National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
The master is in command of the vessel and everything that goes on. The chief engineer is responsible for everything engineering-wise. The master has authority aboard the vessel.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
What's the reporting relationship? Does the engineer have to do what the master says or vice versa? Do they take their command from somewhere else? I need to understand the relationship.
National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
The chief engineer does enjoy a great deal of responsibility, authority, and autonomy, but answers to the captain.
National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
That's right.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
So the master is the captain of the vessel. That seems to be one of the main changes that you've raised that jump out at me. I certainly look forward to raising that with the department, about where the first part says the master or the chief engineer and then all of a sudden they are both liable. So I do look forward to asking that question.
I confess, despite your valiant efforts, and still I will raise the issue with the department.... I appreciate your briefing on UNCLOS and so forth, and I'm hopeful the department will give us a brief. Maybe our library experts could give us some kind of summary of the relationship between UNCLOS and the other international laws and the domestic law, which is the implementing mechanism, so that we can see what those provisions actually say and we can compare it to our law, because it's hard to come to a conclusion right off the bat.
One thing I'm finding trouble with and I'd like someone to—
National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
One thing I wanted to add to what Mr. Giaschi said earlier is that it's important to note that not only do these conventions provide a limited liability, but they also specify who pays for the cleanup. It says that the seafarer does not pay for the cleanup, and it specifies who does. In the case of a convention vessel carrying a persistent or crude oil, that comes from a high deductible paid by the shipowner, first. The rest of the money comes from the international oil cleanup fund.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Maybe I could ask Mr. Giaschi whether there's a provision that if the fund is not sufficient, the domestic nation has the opportunity to seek further redress to recover the real cost of cleanup.
As an Individual
There are various fund levels. You go first to the ship that has a certificate of financial responsibility. It's backed by an international P and I club or an international insurance company. After that fund is exhausted, you go to the ship-source oil pollution fund, which is Canadian-based. After that fund is exhausted, you go to the international oil pollution compensation funds, and after that fund is exhausted, you go to the supplementary fund, which Canada is now implementing. I can't remember the exact numbers.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Is there no provision whatsoever that they can resort to their own domestic processes and laws?
As an Individual
You don't need to, because you have these funds available, and they go up to $290 million. It's a tremendous amount of money.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
It's my understanding--and perhaps the parliamentary secretary, when he asks his questions, can clarify this--that there is another major marine liability bill soon coming before Parliament. It is, in fact, going to address this and implement the new international conventions on bills and so forth.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Okay. I can't speak for the mind of the government. Maybe they're going to be changing these laws twice over once that bill goes through. It's hard for us, as the opposition, to understand that, because we don't know the progression of all the laws that might change.
As an Individual
All Bill C-7 does is implement the international bunker convention. It implements the supplementary fund protocol and then modernizes some of the other aspects of the MLA in terms of the language of the ship-source oil pollution fund.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I have one further question to ask Mr. Boucher, if I have time.
When we met, I really appreciated that, and I'd love to have more time with you to discuss your issues, because they are peculiar to these statutes. I understand that some of you who work in this industry have a particular concern. When you add these provisions, and when the government is moving to more deregulation and self-inspection of the ships, there's a concern that you may not be able to raise these matters and be duly diligent. Would you like to speak to that?
National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
Exactly. Our view is that deregulation, self-inspection, and self-regulation come to us from the aviation industry, which is also where the administrative monetary penalties have come from. We see this deregulation and self-inspection creeping into the marine industry. For reputable companies we're familiar with and comfortable with, that may be fine. On the regulatory side, that may be fine too. But we don't have that comfort factor with the less scrupulous companies that we know operate everywhere, placing the onus, the financial burden, and the fear of reprisal on the seafarer. Because it would be the seafarers doing the self-regulation and self-inspection, similar to the aviation side.
We haven't seen any analysis on the aviation side that it contributed to safety or environmental protection. It's gradually creeping in on the marine side. It's the thin edge of the wedge, as we see it. It's fine to introduce it with the large companies that are already well regulated and have an excellent, strong track record, but in the event that it gets expanded to these other notorious, less scrupulous outfits, we have strong concerns.
Liberal
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you.
Because perhaps I am the only lawyer here on the government side, I'm just boiling over with questions.
I want to say off the top that my reading of the act and the amendments tells me that our justice department did an excellent job. They've covered off most, if not all, of the points that have been raised here this morning.
As soon as the bill was tabled, there was an e-mail that went out to as many stakeholders as the government was aware of. I don't know if anybody here missed it or if they were not on the list.
