Evidence of meeting #17 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shipping.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Boucher  National President, Canadian Merchant Service Guild, International Transport Workers' Federation
Kaity Arsoniadis Stein  President and Secretary-General, International Ship-Owners Alliance of Canada Inc.
Christopher Giaschi  As an Individual
Peter Lahay  National Coordinator, International Transport Workers' Federation

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I know the government has consulted with Transport Canada, so I don't have any complaint at all with the manner in which the government has proceeded.

This morning, I have to say, to put it politely, I've heard some legal propositions that are, at the very least, highly arguable, if not questionable--too many for me to try to address in the questioning time that I have. I am hoping that, at the very least, the committee will permit the government to make some written response to the legal or technical issues that have been raised here this morning, which are a little tough to get through in a seven-minute round of questioning.

That said, I'm happy Mr. Bigras pointed out that, in fact, “strict liability” does not mean there is no presumption of innocence. I'm happy Ms. Duncan pointed out that the provisions in this act are not absolute liability offences wherein prison would be problematic, but are strict liability offences wherein the Supreme Court of Canada has held that prison is not problematic.

I'd like to hit one or two things that I think are fairly simple. I'll begin with Mr. Giaschi on the issue of non-use value, which is found at clause 12, on page 19, proposed section 50.91, which I presume Mr. Giaschi is familiar with.

Do you remember from your law school days the old saw, expressio unius est exclusio alterius?

9:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Giaschi

I'm familiar with the phrase.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

It still holds water, to my knowledge. Do you agree?

9:50 a.m.

As an Individual

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

If one thing is expressed, it means other things are excluded, generally speaking, as a matter of interpretation.

Have you looked at proposed subsection 50.91(4) regarding non-use value? I'll read it to you:

For the purposes of paragraphs (2)(a) and (b), “damage” includes loss of use value and non-use value.

That's the only place, at least in that constellation of amendments, that I can find “non-use value”. Would you agree with me that it simply, in proposed paragraphs 50.91(2)(a) and (b), refers to aggravating factors on sentencing?

Are you familiar with that section?

9:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Giaschi

Yes, I'm familiar with it in the sense that I've read it.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

What I'm saying to you is that the “non-use value” in that section specifically and expressly refers only to the use of “non-use value” for aggravating factors and it doesn't go into compensation.

9:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Giaschi

No, but when they're setting the fines, they can take those matters into account, and the fines would be--

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Not by reason of this section, not by reason of anything in the proposed act.

The only place they can take non-use value into account by reason of the act is for the purpose of determining if there are aggravating factors, not for the purpose of determining compensation. If you could point out to me one place in this bill where it says that non-use value is a component of compensatory damages, you'd get a little further with me, but I have looked and I don't see it.

Can you point out to me any court decision that takes a provision on aggravating features and turns it into a compensatory order? Do you know of any such decision?

9:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Christopher Giaschi

I don't think there is any legislation like this that does that.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

That's right. So I have to say you haven't convinced me at all that non-use value is a factor in compensation.

I can understand why some international shippers may be a little wary if they're getting that kind of information. So would you kindly, on our behalf, take back to them that non-use value is not in this act as a compensatory issue, only an aggravating feature? If you'd tell them that, maybe they'll feel a little better.

Do I have another few minutes?

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Would Ms. Arsoniadis like to respond to that?

9:55 a.m.

President and Secretary-General, International Ship-Owners Alliance of Canada Inc.

Kaity Arsoniadis Stein

Yes, just briefly.

Mr. Giaschi has not been retained on behalf of the International Ship-Owners Alliance or our community to speak on these issues. Our issues—

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I thought he commented on them himself today.

9:55 a.m.

President and Secretary-General, International Ship-Owners Alliance of Canada Inc.

Kaity Arsoniadis Stein

On behalf of CMLA, the Canadian Maritime Law Association.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Well, I'll put the same questions to you, then.

9:55 a.m.

President and Secretary-General, International Ship-Owners Alliance of Canada Inc.

Kaity Arsoniadis Stein

Okay. I'd like to focus on the point of the presumption of innocence and the reverse onus.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I'm sorry, I was asking you about the non-use value issue that was raised. If you can tell me there's somewhere in this act that non-use value is used for the purpose of compensatory damages rather than being limited to determining if there are aggravating factors, I'd like to hear it.

9:55 a.m.

President and Secretary-General, International Ship-Owners Alliance of Canada Inc.

Kaity Arsoniadis Stein

We don't have an issue with that at all. We don't even mention that in our submission.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

That's why I wasn't asking you. I was asking Mr. Giaschi.

Do I have any more time?

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes, you do, but maybe we can move on.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Are you using my time?

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

No, no, I'm not.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Then may I continue?

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes. However, I—