Evidence of meeting #19 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clause.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mike Mercredi  Member, Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation
Renée Caron  Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
Sarah Cosgrove  Manager, Legislative Advice Section, Department of the Environment
Darlene Pearson  Legislation and Policy, Parks Canada Agency
Lucie Bourbonnière  Senior Counsel, Parks Canada, Legal Services, Department of Justice
Wayne Cole  Procedural Clerk
Gillian Grant  Legal Counsel, Transport Canada, Department of Justice
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Normand Radford

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Yes. In proposed new paragraph 49(1)(d.3), I would suggest adding the words “or for”. It would read:

directing the person to pay, in the manner prescribed by the court, an amount to environmental or other groups to assist in their work in or for the community where the offence was committed;

Again, for the same reason, the court may deem that there is a scientific institute or some organization that has been helping an isolated community in dealing with an impact. It still relates to the community, but the funds could go to somebody who is doing work in the community or for the community.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Woodworth.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

It's being proposed as a friendly amendment, and frankly, if Ms. Duncan is insisting on it, I suppose I would reluctantly accede. But my concern is that we're engaged in an act where we're trying to get a degree of uniformity, and we're introducing little wrinkles that make things even less uniform.

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It makes it uniform. That's actually why I'm doing it, to make it uniform.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

If it's insisted on, I'll accept it as a friendly amendment.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Shall we vote on G-7 as amended?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 49 as amended agreed to)

(Clauses 50 to 52 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 53)

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That brings us to clause 53, with amendment NDP-9.1.

Ms. Duncan, would you like to move this and speak to it?

10:40 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

These changes come out of consultation with the legislative drafters, who reviewed other environmental statutes and advised that this wording was more current with how governments were drafting provisions to clarify the liability--or not--for officers involved in enforcement. That is precisely why that wording was selected. It is not my wording; it is wording drawn from other statutes. Particularly in Alberta, the Environmental Protection and Enhancement Act has added those specific words. My understanding is that that was done to make it very clear that the government intends to absolve their agents and officials and officers from liability, but only in very constrained situations, so it defines much more clearly the situations where they would be absolved of liability.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Is there any discussion on this amendment?

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clause 53 as amended agreed to)

(Clauses 54 to 57 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 58)

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

This brings us to clause 58 and amendment BQ-8. But that was from another amendment, I believe, from BQ-2, which was carried.

(Clause 58 as amended agreed to)

(On clause 59)

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

On clause 59 we have amendment NDP-10, on page 27.

Ms. Duncan, would you move your amendment and explain it?

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

As I mentioned to the government yesterday, I am actually removing that. I've had the opportunity to talk to the justice lawyers, and they advised me that it is consistent. It wasn't really clear previously when we went through the bill, and I have been given a level of comfort that I don't need to propose that.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good. Thank you.

(Clauses 59 to 65 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 66)

Now we go to clause 66, amendment NDP-11.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

That's the same. I'm withdrawing it.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You're withdrawing it.

(Clauses 66 and 67 agreed to)

(On clause 68)

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We're now on clause 68 and amendment NDP-12.

Go ahead, Ms. Duncan.

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

We had some discussion yesterday with the government to try to resolve this. I think some of the problems are in the drafting that occurred between too many parties. There were too many cooks in the kitchen. We may be able to resolve this simply with a comma added. I need to find the revisions proposed by the government.

The problem was in how they were to be read together, and there was some confusion about the balancing of the requirement to know administrative law and so forth and to know scientific knowledge versus aboriginal traditional knowledge. When we reviewed that, as I recall, Mr. Woodworth, did we not agree that perhaps simply adding a comma after “administrative law” might remedy that? As it reads right now, it remains confusing. I tried to come up, with the drafters, with an alternate version.

To be clear, on the record, I am very flexible about this. It was my preference that the most important thing for a person who is going to be a review officer to have, frankly, is some kind of administrative or tribunal background, because the role of the review officer is to make sure there is due process and that rights are protected. My understanding is that the government is of the view that it's equally important that the review officer have some background in conservation and the environment. I'm open to being convinced of that.

My bigger concern is that it is unclear, the way it reads, how you include.... For example, if you're wanting to appoint a first nations or Métis person, how do you give equal credence to their backgrounds? So I'm open to some revision that makes that clear or to being convinced that it's fine the way it is.

I'm not trying to make it complicated. I was just troubled by the wording.

10:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Woodworth.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you.

I'd just like to get some input from the officials about what Ms. Duncan and I discussed. For those who are following, in the bound Bill C-16, it's on page 82, section 247.

In order to assuage Ms. Duncan's concern that the final phrase, “traditional aboriginal ecological knowledge”, stood as an independent disjunctive ground and did not simply relate back to the phrase, “administrative law”, I was proposing to Ms. Duncan that perhaps her concern would be satisfied if we simply amended section 247 to put a comma after the word “regulation”. That would make it clear that the “traditional aboriginal ecological knowledge” phrase was not modifying “administrative law” but was an independent disjunctive ground. If the officials are satisfied that this doesn't create any technical havoc with the clause, then that's what I would suggest we do.

10:50 a.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

What is not clear, Mr. Chair, is what specific pieces of information, knowledge, or background the government is trying to convey here. The way it's worded, if you read it all together, I'm not sure it's delivering what the intent is.

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Could I have an answer to my question first, please, because maybe the answer to my question will answer Ms. Duncan's question?

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Could we have some direction here?

Sorry, but you have a four-person meeting going on.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes, I know. I apologize, Mr. McGuinty.

10:50 a.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Okay, step aside.

May 7th, 2009 / 10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Why don't you let the chair decide that, Mr. McGuinty. He's chairing the meeting.