Environment Committee on June 9th, 2009

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

That was the Alberta Geological Survey, not us.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay.

I read a quote before from Mary Griffiths, which said that the Geological Survey of Canada could play a role in mapping between, I think, Fort McMurray and Cold Lake.

So you could step in and help the Alberta Geological Survey in the interests of Albertans and all Canadians.

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

Yes, we could.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I have just one more. This might be science fiction, but someone who studies water policy issues told me that in the United States they have a very sophisticated national database of groundwater that even includes consumption rates and perhaps recharge rates, which you could consult almost by postal code. Am I understanding correctly?

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

You are understanding correctly, but instead of using the words that you used, I would say “indicators”. They have indicators--very simple things to understand--between zero and one. If they are at six, for example, then you are overusing the water. Of course, the indicators contain a lot of the questions, but for the public, you can go there and find out the state of the water circling or going over.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Can we ever come to that in Canada?

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

Well, as a matter of fact, that's our goal, in the middle- to long-term. Once we complete the groundwater information network that Dr. Boerner mentioned earlier, we want to have that type of indicator available to the public.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

But we would have to get statistics on water consumption.

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

Absolutely.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That is problematic, I guess.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

I have just a short question, if I may.

One of the things we've been hearing in terms of the different data collections done specifically by industry around the oil sands development is that there are not just problems with different standards and measurement techniques, but problems in some cases of getting access to this data. So far with the goal of creating a groundwater information network to share all existing data, have you encountered resistance from industry in terms of offering their data in the sense that it may be accessible to all, including the general public and competitors?

[Dr. Alfonso Rivera]

Do you know what? This is a very good question. It's funny, because, no, it's exactly the contrary. They come and ask us to be part of it. They actually like to put money into it.

I don't know; it's very nice news. We're surprised by it. They're keen to participate in this information network.

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Papineau, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Woodworth, I understand you have a quick question.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

This is about tailing ponds. I don't know whether your department and your specific division is familiar with the issues around tailing ponds. I'm having a little difficulty understanding the reclamation process, but as I understand it, means are provided to settle out contaminants, and I have the impression that the water evaporates off the tailing ponds.

If I'm right about that, and you can tell me if I am, does that in some fashion contribute to recycling the water back into the aquifer, through evaporation, or is that totally unrelated to the aquifer?

[Dr. David Boerner]

Well, evaporation is the primary means by which the tailing ponds empty. The question, I guess, is whether they leak as well. That's the part that's open.

Yes, it's one cycle. If water evaporates into the atmosphere, it becomes part of the net holdings of the atmosphere, which get precipitated at some point. So there is a series of connected ways.

There is no water created on earth. It's the same water; it just gets put into different forms.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really want to thank you for your presentation. It has been really informative. It certainly seems to mirror what Dr. Griffiths testified to, only in greater detail, and I'm sure she has relied...in fact, she cites your reports thoroughly.

Based on the information, those three key information gaps, and the three key pieces of information needed to determine impact on groundwater, and given the fact that the federal and provincial governments can only impose mitigation measures on developments, presumably based on some science, would it be fair to say that thus far we don't have the information for the projects approved thus far, when we don't even know what the implications might be? It may be necessary to open up all those licences once we have more solid information down the road.

Would that be fair to suggest?

[Mark Corey]

I'd have to say we'd be kind of hesitant to comment on all projects in that sense.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You don't have to speak to a specific project, but I'm just speaking generally about impacts in the area.

[Mark Corey]

Again, I think we would be hesitant to get into that, just because our role really is to work with others to understand the groundwater and once it gets into the permitting phase and things like that—

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

But it is true that we don't know the answers to these questions yet.

[Dr. David Boerner]

The sustainable yield transport mechanisms in surface water...in several cases we don't have the answers to those.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

And similar to the in-stream flow needs of the river, we need to know a similar kind of information for groundwater.

This has been incredibly informative. I thank you for your presentation.