Environment Committee on Oct. 15th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

l call the meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to the 45th meeting of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

We are honoured today to have Bob Hamilton, the deputy minister of the Department of the Environment, and Mr. Alan Latourelle, chief executive officer with Parks Canada. They've been asked to come here because of recent appointments.

Welcome, gentlemen. We look forward to your presentations and also to your answering some questions from the committee.

We will be hearing from the witnesses from 3:30 to 4:30, and then the committee will suspend and the steering committee will go in camera.

I want to read to you from O'Brien and Bosc, our procedural bible. Pages 1011 to 1013 describe the order in council appointments. This is how the committee is going to deal with this, and the portion that I'm going to read to you will provide some guidance in our questioning. As you consider what we hear from these gentlemen, and as you prepare some questions, keep in mind what is stated on page 1012:

If the committee decides to call the appointee or nominee to appear, it is limited by the Standing Orders to examining the individual's qualifications and competence to perform the duties of the office sought. Questioning by members of the committee may be interrupted by the Chair, if they attempt to deal with matters considered irrelevant to the committee's inquiry. Among the areas usually considered to be outside the scope of the committee's study are the political affiliations of the appointee or nominee, his or her contributions to political parties, and the nature of the nomination process itself. Any question may be permitted if it can be shown that it relates directly to the appointee's or nominee's ability to perform the duties of the office.

Please keep that in mind as you prepare questions.

Again, thank you, gentlemen, for coming. Each of you will have up to 10 minutes to present, and then we'll open questions.

We will begin with Mr. Hamilton. You may proceed.

[Bob Hamilton, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me start by thanking you for inviting me here to give you a chance to talk about my appointment in the Department of the Environment.

I understand that this is the main reason you have invited me today.

I will begin with a very brief statement. After that, I would be very pleased to answer any questions.

It wasn't that long ago that I was here in front of this committee. It was a couple of years ago when I first came to be the associate deputy minister at environment and talked about my appointment then, so I'm pleased to be here.

Perhaps I'll begin by giving you a quick history of how I got here.

I began my career with the Tax Policy Branch at the Department of Finance. I was a member of the team that implemented the goods and services tax. I spent several years working in tax policy.

I also worked at the Financial Sector Policy Branch for a while. Afterwards, I returned to the Tax Policy Branch, at the Department of Finance. While there, I held the position of Senior Assistant Deputy Minister.

I was then appointed Associate Secretary of the Treasury Board and, after a short period of time, I became Associate Deputy Minister of Environment Canada in 2009. I held that position for almost two years, until I left in 2010.

After that time at Environment Canada, I went on to be the Canadian representative on the Canada-U.S. Regulatory Cooperation Council, which was an initiative that the Prime Minister and President Obama set up to streamline regulations between Canada and the U.S. I am happy to speak about that.

I passed about 18 months in that position leading up to my recent appointment at Environment Canada. I have been in the job for a couple of months. I have had a brief introduction to some of the issues that we are facing. I have to say I am very pleased to be back at Environment Canada. I think it really does provide an opportunity to work on a diverse set of issues. It is a science-based department so it provides very interesting perspectives on the science aspects of environmental policy. We have the Meteorological Service of Canada, which provides a great opportunity to understand weather and climate while monitoring water and air across the country.

We at Environment Canada consider ourselves to be world-class regulators. There is a significant regulatory component to what we do, whether we are regulating GHG emissions or pollutants of other forms in the water or the air. As well, a fair amount of our activity is concerned with protecting species at risk. This is a pretty diverse work agenda from what I can see in the first couple of months that I have been here and one which I think presents a number of interesting challenges and opportunities.

I look forward to using the experience I had at the Department of Finance and Treasury Board as well as the regulatory cooperation activities I was engaged in just prior to accepting this position.

That's a little bit of the history of how I got here, what I think I might bring to the table, and how I see, in a preliminary way, some of the challenges and opportunities that we face.

I am happy to answer any questions you may have after you hear from my colleague, Alan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. Latourelle.

[Alan Latourelle, Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada]

It is a real pleasure to appear before the committee to discuss my appointment as chief executive officer at Parks Canada. I will give some very brief remarks and after my remarks it will be a pleasure to answer any questions you may have.

I will give you a bit of an overview of my career in the public service of Canada.

After completing a bachelor of business administration and commerce at the Université du Québec à Hull, I began my career in the federal public service in 1983 as a Financial Control Officer at the National Capital Commission.

Over the next decade, I rose through the ranks to become the Director of Finance of the commission. In 1993, I joined the Public Service Commission as Director General of Financial Management and Corporate Services. During my time there, I also earned a master of business administration from Queen's University.

In 1995, I became Director General of Financial Management, at the Department of Canadian Heritage, which at the time included Parks Canada.

Over the last 15 years I have been a proud member of the Parks Canada team. I first joined the agency in Calgary as the director general responsible for western and northern Canada. I was responsible for the operational service delivery unit that comprised more than 2,000 team members. That serviced close to 12 million visitors annually. We ensured that federal government objectives were achieved by developing public policies and service delivery approaches within a multi-stakeholder environment.

In 1999 I returned to the national capital region as Parks Canada's chief administrative officer. In 2002, 10 years ago, I was appointed chief executive officer of the Parks Canada agency for the first time.

Over the last 15 years I've had the opportunity to work with non-government organizations, the private sector, different levels of government, aboriginal communities, and international partners to proudly serve the people of Canada.

Each of the Parks Canada protected heritage areas is part of Canada's collective soul and part of our nation's promise to future generations. The work we do at Parks Canada is far more than keeping facilities in good repair, welcoming visitors, protecting a piece of nature from vandals or poachers, or making a government bureaucracy run smoothly. Our work, when you get right to the heart of it, is what used to be called nation-building.

We have entered our second century of serving Canadians. We celebrated our centennial in Parks Canada in 2011. Our vision is clear:

Canada’s treasured natural and historic places will be a living legacy, connecting hearts and minds to a stronger, deeper understanding of the very essence of Canada.

We will face the challenges of the future, but also seize the opportunities before us by expanding our system of national parks, establishing a national urban park in the Rouge Valley, achieving real and measurable natural and heritage conservation improvements, and connecting more Canadians to their national treasures.

I want to be clear for the benefit of the committee that in Parks Canada's mandate we have national parks, but we also have national historic sites and national marine conservation areas.

The valuable experience and skills that I have gained, especially over the last 15 years, will allow me to make a significant contribution to the achievement of the agency's priorities and to future generations of Canadians.

It would be a pleasure to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you, Mr. Latourelle.

We will begin our seven-minute round of questioning with Mr. Toet.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our two guests for being with us today. We very much appreciate it.

I want to start with you, Mr. Hamilton. I read through your educational background and your work history and there's not a great deal of financial work that you've done. With all the economic training that you have had, both professionally and academically, how would you see those assisting you in your duties at Environment Canada?

[Bob Hamilton]

Yes, thank you.

I'm proud to be an economist. Let me get that out of the way right at the start.

It's interesting. I find that it's a good perspective to bring. Obviously we have a number of economists in the Department of the Environment. I've been an economist long enough to know it isn't everything. But I think it's important as we consider matters as they relate to the environment to think about the economic aspects of what we're doing as well.

To proceed blindly from just an economic perspective is just as bad as to proceed blindly from an environmental or any other single-minded perspective. I think it's very helpful if we can bring both of those into the equation. Sometimes the balance needs to be struck in different proportions depending on the issue, but I think you do need both perspectives there.

From my perspective—and it is always hard to talk about oneself and all the wonderful things one can do for a file—I do think a couple of things in my career have set me up well to contribute on this front. One is that I spent a lot of time in the regulatory world, which is a big part of what Environment Canada does. I worked in the tax system as well as in the financial sector. I have some experience with knowing how regulations get done, what kind of considerations you need to bring to bear when you are designing them, how to implement them, and how to evaluate them and assess them. That's one aspect.

As well, I think the work I did recently on the Canada-U.S. front helps me on that score. One of the areas we looked at, in addition to agriculture, food safety, and transport, was the environment and how we can find a way to harmonize or align our regulations better.

That is not to say we have to adopt the same regulations. Obviously, we won't in every circumstance, but if there are places where we can achieve the same objective, we should look for ways to do that in the most effective and efficient way possible.

I think as well in the work that I have done, both in the financial sector and in tax policy, there has been a lot of interaction with stakeholders of all kinds, whether they are private sector businesses, non-governmental organizations, or individuals, Canadians, obviously. I think I have picked up an ability over the years to listen to different points of view on different issues and to try to take those into consideration as we decide how to proceed.

To encapsulate all of that, going forward we have tremendous opportunities here in Canada from both an economic and an environmental perspective. We have both economically rich resources and a sophisticated economy capable of producing lots of jobs and growth for the future if we manage it correctly. From an environmental perspective, obviously we have a nation full of rich resources that we can protect and enshrine. I think it's an interesting time to try to bring those two forces together.

I look forward to using some of my economic training as well as the more general public policy training I've had up until now to guide us through some potentially tricky waters on different issues as Canada finds its place in the globe in terms of how we want to develop our environment and our economy.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

In your answer, you touched briefly on the need for partnerships and how important partnerships are federally and provincially in Canada as well as with other countries around the world. There are all those different partnerships. We need them, and they have to work intricately together. You did touch on the one example of your work with the Canada-U.S. partnership.

Could you outline for us a little of your background and ability in bringing forward partnerships and working within partnerships and on how you have been able to leverage both sides and work together towards a goal that ultimately everybody is satisfied with?

[Bob Hamilton]

Sure. Probably the domain where I've had the most experience working from a partnership perspective would be in the tax policy area. In order to move issues forward in that domain, you often work with a diverse group of participants. I'll give you three examples.

First off, I'll start at the international level. Obviously, on the issue of international taxation, it's critical that we work with other partners around the world to develop tax systems that fit together nicely—tax treaties, what have you—and that we find a way to make the tax system globally, all the individual pieces of it, fit together well.

I actually chaired an OECD committee on taxation when I was there, so I've had some experience in trying to bring together the different perspectives—countries bring very different perspectives to the issue of taxation—into some sort of cohesive unit.

The second thing I would note is that with the provinces and the territories, in the area of taxation, and perhaps even more so in the area of the environment, it's important to be able to work together with our provincial counterparts to try to achieve the objectives that we are both trying to achieve.

For example, last week I was out in Lake Louise with the minister for the meeting of the federal and provincial environment ministers. We were able to announce actions on air quality in Canada. That was the culmination of a lot of work, most of which I wasn't involved with, on the federal and provincial fronts to try to come up with common areas where we can work together to improve air quality in Canada.

I know that working with the provinces is a very important part of what I'll need to do in this job. In the taxation domain, again, whether it was actual federal-provincial committees on taxation, it was important to try to pull that together. We couldn't always agree on everything, on what we wanted to do federally versus different provinces, but again, it was trying to have the dialogue and making sure that we understood the issues as we were developing our policies and achieving as much common ground as we could.

Finally, obviously it's important to work with individual Canadians or groups in the taxation area. I've had a number of experiences on that. On things like the registered disability savings plan, it was really important to work with a diverse group of people to try to figure out how we could devise a tax program that would actually help parents save for their disabled children. It was seen to be very positive. As well, with the working income tax benefit, we tried to provide help for people who are on the cusp of working and getting back to work, to try to make sure that the tax system is working as well as we can make it work there. It's very important for our work with the provinces to be integrated in that respect.

Those are a few experiences that I hope will help me in this world in which I know I'm going to have a number of partners to work with on various issues that are going to come at us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Thank you, Mr. Hamilton, and Mr. Toet.

Next, Ms. Leslie, you have seven minutes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Welcome, and congratulations to both of you on your appointments. I very much look forward to working with both of you.

Mr. Hamilton, I appreciated your answer to Mr. Toet's first question. My partner is an economist doing a Ph.D. in climate policy, so I understand perfectly well how economics intersects with environment. It's good to have that point of view.

My first question is for you, Mr. Hamilton, and it's a straightforward question. It might seem flippant, but I am not asking this in a flippant way. I'm asking this in a very serious way. I expect that if you were in my shoes, you'd want to know the answer as well.

What causes climate change?

[Bob Hamilton]

Wow. They didn't tell me I'd have to answer questions like that when I took this job.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Just in your opinion; it doesn't have to be—

[Bob Hamilton]

I don't know the total answer to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

One moment, Mr. Hamilton.

We have a point of order from Ms. Ambler.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Chair, my understanding from your remarks earlier is that the questions were to be limited in scope to the competence and credentials of our guests today.

It doesn't seem to me, unless there's something I'm missing, that this would relate at all to the resumés, CVs, or work experience of Mr. Latourelle and Mr. Hamilton.

I would ask, Mr. Chair, if you would direct the member to ask about what we're supposed to be talking about today, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Very good.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Could I speak to that, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Yes, please, Ms. Leslie.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

The government may not think the cause of climate change is important to the environment committee or the deputy minister of the environment, but I happen to think it's pivotal, if we have a deputy minister who's creating climate change policy, that he, first of all, believes in the existence of man-made climate change, and second, knows a little bit about it.

I think it's perfectly on point.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Chairman, may I speak to the point of order?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Yes, Mr. Woodworth, you may speak to the point of order.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

If Mr. Hamilton had been engaged as a climate change scientist, then I suppose his knowledge of what causes climate change might be relevant, but it's not for Mr. Hamilton to craft policy for the government on climate change. It's for Mr. Hamilton to have the administrative and other skills necessary to implement the government's policy on climate change. I don't think his personal knowledge of climate change that one might have to go to school to learn about is relevant to what this committee is doing here today.

I say that as someone who does believe that climate change is an important feature of our world today. I don't mean to minimize the subject of climate change, but I think we have to keep on track with what this gentleman is hired to do, and I don't think it's to work in a lab to determine the causes of climate change, or to look at modelling or other computer simulations. His job is to manage a department.

I agree with Ms. Ambler that the question is way out of the area of relevance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mark Warawa]

Let me read from O’Brien and Bosc again:

Questioning by members of the committee may be interrupted by the Chair, if they attempt to deal with matters considered irrelevant to the committee's inquiry.… Any question may be permitted if it can be shown that it relates directly to the appointee's…ability to perform the duties of the office.

The question on climate change is an important one, and I would hope that we all believe that the environment is very important, including a change in climate, very important, but the focus today, as pointed out in O’Brien and Bosc, is to be strictly on the qualifications of the person.

If the question to Mr. Hamilton was regarding qualifications and whether he believed that the climate is changing, that question would be in order. But if it was regarding policy of climate change and what the government is doing or may be doing regarding climate change, that would be out of order.

Ms. Leslie, you still have lots of time left; you've only used 56 seconds. I would encourage you for your remaining time to focus on the qualifications aspect.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I'm almost being ruled out of order, so I'll rephrase.

I'm not looking for a technical or a scientific definition; I just want to know if you believe in the existence of man-made climate change.