Evidence of meeting #39 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was you're.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Laskowski  Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Margaret Meroni  Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
Heather McCready  Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment
Linda Tingley  Senior Counsel, Environment Legal Services, Department of the Environment

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

None of this addresses what I see as the ongoing concerns. When I became the chief, these were exactly the kinds of concerns that were expressed. It's troubling to me. When I left that office, I recommended it become a separate enforcement division, and I'm glad to see that happened.

The reason for that was that there were a lot of problems with interference by headquarters and because of relationships between regional directors, and their priority was to maintain relations with the provinces and the territories. When I read about these concerns and the fact that they are continuing, my next question to you would be who makes the decision on whether there will be an enforcement action initiated? Is it the officers on the ground, or is it a political decision at headquarters?

4:15 p.m.

Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment

Margaret Meroni

The officers are completely autonomous in terms of the actions they take. That was what I had referenced in my speaking points.

The establishment of an independent branch in part creates that separation as well, so that we do not discuss any of the actions the officer wants to undertake unless we're reporting in terms of providing updates on outcomes. But the officers are unfettered in their discretion, their decision-making. They work with the Public Prosecution Service to try to determine whether or not a case will be taken forward to the courts, and we've made sure we've provided them with policies to help guide and inform them in terms of some of the decision-making they're allowed to do.

They're aware of the tools through extensive training. We conduct training on both sides of the operation—environmental, enforcement, standardized training—followed up by applied enforcement training that covers the peace officer powers. Between the training and the policies, they are unfettered in their decision-making.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Do I have more time?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

It's up. I'm sorry.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I'll get it on the next round then.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Okay.

Mr. Amos.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. We do appreciate you guys coming here.

Specifically to the witnesses from Environment Canada, it's a pleasure to have this opportunity. I think it's really important for the Canadian public to better understand what it is you do. I think your initial statement really does lay it out quite simply, because it's not really all about being out there with a stick. There's a whole lot more to it, and oftentimes federal enforcement, whatever administration it happens to be under, comes under fire, including my own in the past.

For this first section, I want to focus on an article, criticisms that I voiced publicly through the McGill International Journal of Sustainable Development Law and Policy. I figured you guys would have prepared, knowing that I had written this kind of thing years back. I want to go specifically to the report from the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development from 2009, where the commissioner was, I would say, fairly withering in his criticism with respect to reporting obligations required under CEPA. The Commissioner also indicated that the quality of publicly available enforcement data was inadequate, in terms of accuracy, completeness and accessibility.

I want to linger on that last point and get your thoughts on where Environment Canada is and where the federal government is on enforcement data, accessibility, and completeness, and whether there is a vision for where we can go next. If we're a committee that thinks we can go to the next level, can we get a sense of where you guys would like us to go?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment

Heather McCready

Thank you very much for that, and thank you for plugging the McGill JSDLP; I'm a former editor-in-chief, so I appreciate it.

Yes, I'm familiar with your article.

I'm not going to offer any opinions on where I think things should go, but I can tell you where we are and what we're working on.

The CESD audit was issued quite some time ago, and there have been many changes since then. I've been with the branch for about seven years and have seen things change and modernize quite significantly over that time. There are three areas in particular in which I think we're seeing some pretty dramatic improvements, and you're going to start seeing these play out publicly over time.

The first is with planning and reporting. That's about deciding what we should focus on and then how we communicate about the work we've done. In deciding how we should focus our efforts, and also to address Ms. Duncan's comments about regional staff versus headquarters staff, I actually don't see a divide at all between regional staff and headquarters staff.

I'm a relatively new director general. I've been on the job since July, and everything I do is about the work the regions do, because theirs is the work of the enforcement branch; everything else that happens, at headquarters, is supportive of their work. The widgets that we make are enforcement actions, not reports on things or PowerPoint presentations.

We've brought the regions very much in to help figure out what we should be doing on an annual basis, in that we have a representative from each region who sits on a committee that helps decide what our priorities are. They work with the staff at headquarters to crunch the data and look at what we've done in the past and where our interventions have been the most successful; then we figure out where to focus our priorities for that year.

It's very much grounded in what's really happening out there in the world. I think this shows a lot of respect for the work people do on the ground, but much more importantly, I think it actually makes our work a lot better.

Describing the work that we do in reporting is always a challenge in an enforcement organization; that is the case across the world, actually. Numbers don't really adequately tell the story of the work we do.

For example, you might see something that says we opened up an investigation. What does that mean? An investigation can take a few months, but 50% of our investigations actually take one to three years of lots and lots of hard work. It counts as one investigation, but it really doesn't tell you the story of what we've done.

We are getting better at reporting using narratives, appearing at industry association events and bar association events and events such as this to tell our story better and in a way that the public can understand. That's in line with what the present government is doing in terms of reporting out to Canadian people in a way that's easier to understand.

The second area we're getting a lot better in is the use of intelligence analysis. It helps us out strategically in considering where to plan our efforts for the year. Margaret mentioned that our planned inspections are based heavily on what our intelligence group is providing. We've made significant efforts to improve their capacity over the years, and that's only going to grow with time.

The third area in which we're improving dramatically is our investigative capacity and our hand-off to the Public Prosecution Service, in terms of working with them and improving our relationship with them. It's a very close relationship right now, and that closeness is also helping us make sure that things that need to go to court do go to court and that fines start to rise. I think you're going to see the efforts of this over time, and were we to be audited again in a couple of years, you'd see a different result.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

William Amos Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you.

I'm curious about the department's perspective on the National Enforcement Management Information System and Intelligence System—NEMISIS—which the public generally isn't aware of, but which is likely of interest to them.

Is it your view that the public has a role to play in enforcement and that its own ability to access information and data about enforcement activities undertaken can actually serve to maintain the disincentive effect that your own department's efforts already achieve to a degree?

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

You have about 20 seconds.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment

Heather McCready

Again I'm not going to give you my opinion on that, suffice it to say. I'm happy you mentioned NEMISIS, because that was one of the issues raised in the audit. We are actually about to roll out a brand new database system that will be much more modern and far easier for me to pull information from. We're quite excited about that.

Police officers don't open up their databases to the public for the same reason we don't. There are all kinds of privacy concerns around that sort of information, and these are ongoing files. We can't talk about open files publicly; that sort of information is protected and shouldn't be shared.

However—

Pardon me?

4:25 p.m.

Chief Enforcement Officer, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment

Margaret Meroni

We extrapolate statistics.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Environmental Enforcement Directorate, Enforcement Branch, Department of the Environment

Heather McCready

We do extrapolate statistics for the public, and I think an educated, aware public, able to use the tools it has under CEPA, is of course a good thing. Those tools are there for a reason.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte

Thank you very much.

Next up is Mr. Shields.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I appreciate it.

Stephen, I'll go to trucking questions to start with. You talked about who you are representing here. Can you just explain that one more time for me?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance

Stephen Laskowski

Sure.

Our membership is made up of ownership CEOs. Our board is made up of those same individuals. In total it represents about 4,500 companies from across the country.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

You used the words private carriers.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance

Stephen Laskowski

Yes. Those are people who haul their own goods, such as a retail outlet or manufacturer that makes a product, and then owns and operates the vehicles as well.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Where are the independents?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance

Stephen Laskowski

Do you mean the owner/operators?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Yes.

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance

Stephen Laskowski

Most owner/operators these days work for our membership. The true sense of the independent carrier of nostalgic movies, people out there getting their own freight and operating their own vehicle, really doesn't exist anymore. They are independent owner/operators who may work for multiple carriers, but they are contractors to those carriers.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Are you representing the contractor piece, then?

4:25 p.m.

Senior Vice-President, Canadian Trucking Alliance

Stephen Laskowski

Indirectly, we are. We believe we are the voice of the industry, but not everyone pays their dues.

November 29th, 2016 / 4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Now you're getting to where I want to go.

I'm an old guy, so I remember when the first airtight equipment for environment on our cars was a modified juice can. We all learned quickly how to get those out of there. You're talking about a much more expensive process. If everybody's in this, who is the group taking those pieces out and going around it? Who's doing this?