Evidence of meeting #71 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was places.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Robert Sopuck Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
—and, of course, the superintendent.... We could touch one of the chert but you couldn't even pick it up to look at it. That's how tight the rules and regulations are. It was a real honour to be there and I think Parks Canada is doing a great job on its archaeological preservation.
Thank you, Madam.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
First off, I'd like to welcome our member back physically to the committee, Ed Fast. It's great to have your intellect and your good-natured banter back at the table. It's great to have you back.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Thank you all for being here today.
I'm glad that Will and Bob have picked up on the rural side of it. I have a very rural riding and I am fortunate enough to have a number of historical sites in my riding. It's a competition of resources to maintain these sites that really hurts our rural ridings, because the wealth and the lobbying capacity are in the large urban centres, and even the resources to be able to put toward applications and the like are in large urban ridings.
I'm deeply concerned that a lot of the rural ridings get overlooked. I have a town hall in my riding that is of a Greek revival style, which is unique in a rural riding and especially in southern Ontario, and in Ontario, period. It's the centre of town, so when we're talking about rebuilding rural communities, rebuilding Main Street, a lot of these buildings are the centrepiece of the town. Therefore, if they don't receive that upkeep, then they also become the disintegrating part of rebuilding Main Street.
Part of my concern is about cost-sharing and around tax incentives that once again the wealthier centres have financial resources to bring to bear on, so they act as a magnet to draw those resources even further away from rural communities.
I think Joëlle would be the best to answer this. Is there a focus in Parks Canada specifically on rural areas? Is there a designated kind of commitment to the rural side of it, so that the urban side doesn't dominate when it comes to funding?
Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
No, there is no particular focus on rural versus urban. The applications are all looked at on their merit. There is, though, a new.... As part of the expanded program, we are looking at assistance in order to prepare submissions, so that's something the proponents can request. Once we are involved, we offer lots of guidance and assistance. We have had a lot of success stories in how we have interacted with the proponents who are the owners of a particular site.
It is a privilege for us when we have the opportunity to work with different owners in terms of providing ongoing advice, but the program itself does not favour rural versus urban.
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
A big part of my job since I came to the Hill has been educating my urban counterparts on the unique rural challenges that exist and applying that rural lens to government policy and programs.
Is there, within the department, active consideration that we're all from urban and we all understand urban? It's not a criticism. It's just natural that you would view things through an urban lens. Is there active thought to look at things through a rural lens, to ensure that rural is not being adversely impacted or negated through the negligence of just not realizing that those challenges even exist?
Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
At Parks, as you can appreciate, our sites are spread across the country and often associated with national parks, which tend to be not so much in urban centres, so we do not necessarily look at it through this lens, but we certainly would not do anything that would favour one over the other, or offer preferential treatment to one or the other. That's not how the crowd-sharing program is designed right now, and the management of our sites is done based on....
I don't know if Natalie would like to add something in terms of how the National Trust is—
Liberal
Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON
Actually, I had the opportunity to meet with the National Trust, and the GoFundMe crowdsourcing mechanism is a great story. Robert, you're going to enjoy hearing about that. It is something I want to continue to delve into.
There is a significant historic site, once again in the centre of town, in a town called Deseronto, but it's the post office. The building is in total disrepair. It's falling apart, but it is an incredibly beautiful structure. The town wanted to purchase it from the post office and utilize it, either for residential or for commercial use, or whatever, commercial at the main level and residential above. It's a multi-storey stone building.
I can't seem to figure it out. It's federally owned by the post office, but it's not a federal site. Is there some kind of difference between a post office site and a federal site? It was built in 1901.
Genevieve Charrois Director, Cultural Heritage Policies, Parks Canada Agency
I would need to take a look at the specific building you're talking about. It could be a national historic site, or it could be a federal heritage building, which is solely for federal inventory. That's an assessment that's done for buildings owned by the federal government.
In that case, it would be with the portfolio of the department. You would need to see if it's available for purchase.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Deb Schulte
I'm sorry, Mike. I have to cut that off. My apologies.
Monsieur Godin, go ahead.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.
You are enlightening us on some things. We are here to improve the procedure, and this is your reality on a daily basis.
I see that the problem is a financial one, and it is a recurring problem. We will never eliminate a heritage site, we will always add to it. The costs of restoration and upgrading will ensure that, even for existing sites, there will be additional costs. This seems realistic to me.
Now, what do we do?
My colleague Mr. Bossio was talking about a post office. In my riding, sites of great historic value are somewhat lost. I have two very clear examples of ownership and the will of the environment.
My riding is home to the historic site of Fort-Jacques-Cartier-et-du-Manoir-Allsopp, in Cap-Santé. This abandoned fort marked Canada's history with Jacques Cartier. The mansion is a little outdated and poorly maintained, and the local people don't have the means to maintain it.
As a member of Parliament, what can I do to help them? In the report we will table, what mechanisms or tools can we put in place to restore historic sites? We realize that the funds are not unlimited. Knowing this, what do we do now?
My questions are for Ms. Montminy and Ms. Bull.
Executive Director, National Trust for Canada
Maybe I'll start.
I'll answer in English because it's a bit quicker for me.
It's interesting that, as a non-governmental entity, the National Trust for Canada, learns from national trusts around the world and we know that there is the potential for a national trust to work in partnership with government to become a powerful force to collectively build a culture of philanthropy in Canada. I think that is the next frontier of funding for historic places in this country. We've already started down that path with our crowdfunding platform. With help with funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage, we've also recently built an online portal called Regeneration Works, which directly provides resources, webinars, training, and even direct one-on-one coaching to organizations that are trying to save historic places in their own areas.
Therefore, I think we've really recognized that, as you say, funding is key and there are many creative ways to bring funding to bear. Obviously, the federal government needs to be an important partner, but there are means to help local groups become much more savvy in tapping into corporate partnerships and the number of grants that exist out there as well. There are pots of funding in untraditional locations that we can help groups become aware of, but as an organization as well, I think the National Trust needs to be supported. We're a charity, so we're also out there looking for funding to support the programs that we offer.
Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
Parks Canada has a lot of tools that enable it to help the various owners to conserve and preserve their sites.
As for funding for owners who are not part of the federal family, the only way we can currently provide them with financial aid is through the Parks Canada national cost-sharing program for heritage places. As I mentioned, funding for this program was increased by $10 million a year for two years, after which it will return to $1 million a year. That's all the financial aid available for private owners.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Bull, you are requesting federal funding and recommending that tools be given to private sector individuals who are involved in protecting our heritage, including tax breaks. Could that encourage more people aware of the importance of heritage protection to invest in this area?
Humans being humans, you will understand that these people will want a profit in return. A tax break could be a benefit, but there are other ways. Where is the line drawn for the private sector? A private company that contributes to the development of a site will want benefits in terms of visibility, marketing or advertising. These are possible solutions. Were these things considered?
My question is for Ms. Bull, but Ms. Montminy could also answer. At the various Parks Canada sites, is marketing bordering on what is acceptable?
Liberal
Executive Director, National Trust for Canada
There's a lot of potential for local organizations to work with corporate partners. There are things to be learned and cautions to be applied. Again, I think there is a great potential. Funding to help organizations like ours and support those efforts I think is one piece of the puzzle.
Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
The approaches are sometimes very limited as to the marketing of events at our sites. We accept donations, for instance, but this doesn't really fit the Parks Canada mandate.
Conservative
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
Thank you. I'm not a regular member of this committee. I just have one question and then I'll turn it back.
I have a lot of heritage sites in my riding, especially in Pickering on the Transport lands. My question—and I think I heard part of the answer—is in regard to who actually is responsible for it when it's federally owned. What I'm hearing is that it's the department.
I guess part of my question or my frustration is that investments are made by the federal government in restoring these sites and then nothing is done to maintain them. In my riding, we have an historic home. Fifteen years ago, half a million dollars was spent, and now that home has completely fallen apart again.
Is there any type of organization, whether internally with the federal government or externally, that is monitoring to ensure restoration is happening continuously, rather than having it suddenly get to a point where things are going to fall apart and you have to do something?
