Environment Committee on May 12th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to our second round now, which is the five-minute round.

We have Mr. Scheer, for five minutes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

A few weeks ago I submitted an Order Paper question. For those who are watching this committee, members of Parliament have the ability not only to ask questions verbally in the House of Commons, but to submit written questions that the government is supposed to answer. These are usually a bit more specific.

I asked a very specific Order Paper question about the number of infrastructure projects across all government departments, specifically asking about those that are behind schedule and what the delays in those projects have cost Canadian taxpayers. I was pretty alarmed with what came back from Parks Canada. Some of the numbers are very large and, quite frankly, staggering. I'm trying to make sure I'm not missing something, so I'm wondering if I can ask the officials or the minister to explain some of these cost overruns.

For example, for the Trent-Severn Waterway National Historic Site, the original total estimated cost of the project was $8.3 million. There's a delay of one year. No specific reason for the delay was given. The revised estimated total cost is now $18 million, a $10-million increase.

For the Province House National Historic Site, the original total estimated cost of the project was $20 million. It was supposed to be completed in 2019. There's now a five-year delay on this project. No specific reason was given for the delay. The new cost is $91 million. That's a little over $70 million in additional costs due to the delay.

Maybe we'll start with those two. What kind of explanation can be offered to this committee, and to Canadian taxpayers, as to the reason for these delays, and why it's adding so much money to the cost of these projects?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I'm more than happy to try to answer these questions here, but we're also happy to provide you with a longer answer in written form, if that would be of value.

Maybe I can ask Ron Hallman, who is the CEO of Parks Canada, to respond to the specific questions you asked.

[Ron Hallman, President and Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency]

Thank you, Chair.

By and large, most of our projects, including during COVID, have been proceeding on schedule or close to schedule. There are some that are of concern, as the member has identified. As the minister has suggested, we could provide greater detail after the committee, if you like, or during the officials' session. We will have our VP of operations with us, who may be able to provide some additional detail at that time.

Province House has been a particular challenge for a number of reasons that are outside of our control, with contractors, etc. It's a fair question though, and we would be happy to do our best to get the member the answers he's looking for.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I recognize that on a project-by-project basis, it might be helpful for the committee to have that longer explanation.

You said something I'm kind of wondering about. I can understand that on normal infrastructure projects there are sometimes many moving pieces. You have municipalities, towns, RMs and large cities. You have provincial layers of government, and the federal government has one-third of the control or ability to manage the projects.

In fact, usually, for most infrastructure programs, the federal government acts as the person who reimburses other levels of government. For delays in projects, you can usually look to municipal governments or provincial governments or whatnot. However, with Parks Canada, we're talking about, in many cases—I'm reading through them—historic sites, like the Rideau Canal, the Trent-Severn Waterway and Jasper National Park. These are facilities that are owned and operated 100% by Parks Canada. There aren't other levels of government that are participating in this.

Again, understanding you might have to come back to the committee with a more specific example, if we go to Jasper National Park, the complete reconstruction program of Whistlers Campground—you're talking about upgrading a campground—was originally estimated to cost $6.7 million. It's jumped up to $62 million. That's a huge jump.

There are a few of these examples, and so far, a quick math shows 46 pages' worth of projects that are behind schedule and now over budget.... You said most of them are on time. Fine, but we're in the business of trying to give the very best results to taxpayers. We're halfway through the list, and I believe the number we've calculated is $400 million in project overruns.

Can you explain how Parks Canada can—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You can ask the question, but we won't have time for an answer until it comes back to the Conservatives, I guess, or anyone else.

We will go now to Mr. Longfield, for five minutes, please.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the minister and the officials who are here today.

Looking at the estimates, there's a section that has grants and another that has contributions. When I'm looking at the grants, there's “Taking Action on Clean Growth and Climate Change”. In contributions, we have the “Low Carbon Economy Fund”.

I'm looking at how I help to steer my constituents towards the right types of funding streams. There are a lot of grants and a lot of contributions.

In general, what's the difference between those two streams?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Again, it will depend a little on the specific program that you're focused on. Certainly, we have Gs and Cs under the low-carbon economy fund, whereby organizations and communities can apply to have project funding flow to them. There are a whole range of examples.

I think, in your neck of the woods, the University of Guelph had a heating system that was done. It got $640,000 to do a new heating system, which is the equivalent of essentially taking almost 20,000 cars off the road.

The Gs and Cs are set up in such a way that it is about enabling community groups, municipalities, universities and those kinds of things to be able to apply to get federal support to do work on projects that will help reduce emissions.

That is separate and apart, often, from the work we do with provinces and territories directly.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks.

In Guelph, it is like a firehose for me. There are a lot of projects and a lot of people interested in contributing to solutions. The University of Guelph is one, but there are many others, so we will be diving in on that. It's good to see the amount of funding going into grants and contributions, because we have a lot of ideas there.

We also looked at our study on single-use plastics. Madame Pauzé mentioned looking at recycling and topics around that. It's very important for Guelph. Again, I sat on a waste stream management group before I was elected. We looked at the diversion targets on plastics.

I'm getting a lot of emails for further details on plastics. Could the minister explain how the government is taking an integrated approach across Canada and here in Ontario to better manage plastics and recycled materials, and how the main estimates support the goals you have?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Plastic is a very important issue, and as you saw from the scientific study, it is very harmful in the environment, given how we actually treat it today.

We typically are dealing with plastics in a linear fashion today. Recycling rates are very low. Most plastics end up either in the environment or in a landfill. The focus is trying to come up with a comprehensive approach that essentially keeps plastics out of the environment and in the economy.

That means you have to address a whole bunch of different things. Certainly, first and foremost, you have to ensure that what you're trying to recycle is recyclable. The ban on harmful single-use plastics that we are moving forward with is about dealing with those things that are particularly difficult to recycle or very costly to recycle, for which there are readily available alternatives.

Then, you have to have better product design, so we're working with the Canada Plastics Pact to ensure that we're thinking about recyclability in the context of all the work that producers are doing.

We're working with the provinces and territories to put in place extended producer responsibility systems, whereby they are responsible for collecting the plastics. Over time, we will be ratcheting up the percentage that is going to be required to be recycled.

It's about a comprehensive approach to ensure that we're getting at it.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

We heard in our study that there's a massive economic opportunity, if we can get the investment side of it right.

A group of students I deal with a lot at the Upper Grand District School Board have a community environment leadership program. The students have been really interested in what we're doing in terms of conserving nature, improving biodiversity and working with indigenous partners to meet our goals.

Could you maybe expand on the line items on the “Canada Nature Fund” that support conserving nature and help build on the progress we've made so far. Is there some information I can give our students?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

It's a very important question. People think a lot about the crisis of climate change, but we have a competing crisis, which is the crisis of biodiversity loss in this country and around the world.

When we came to office, the protection rate of our oceans, for example, was 1%. We have boosted that to about 15% through the work we have done over the course of the past few years. We have also added an additional 200,000 square kilometres of Canada's land and inland waters, and we're on track to conserve 17% of Canada's lands by 2023 and 25% by 2025.

The budget also contained an additional $4 billion to focus on conservation and protection, to create these protected spaces, but also on addressing species-at-risk issues. It's about trying to stem that decline in biodiversity and ensure that we're living in better harmony with nature.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Pauzé, you have two and a half minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Minister, I would like to go back to the issue of money.

I would like to know whether the members of the Net-Zero Advisory Body, the establishment of which you announced last February, will be paid for their advice to you.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

No. If there are expenses, it is possible that the government will pay them, but the members of the body will have no salary.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

But do the amounts allocated for those potential expenses appear in the Main Estimates 2021-2022?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I will have to ask the deputy minister. I believe that the allocations to the advisory body are in the estimates, but I am not sure.

Ms. Hogan, perhaps you can say a few words.

[Christine Hogan, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

Yes. In terms of the budget, there has been a dedicated amount of resources to the net-zero advisory panel, which was outlined in the strengthened climate plan last December. Those resources, of course, are to support the work of the advisory body, the secretariat that supports it, the research that the body will identify as priorities, and also the outreach with Canadians and stakeholders as they move their work forward.

Hopefully, that addresses the question.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I would like to know when the advisory body's mandate will start and how many members it will have.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

They started three months ago, I believe. The advisory body currently has 14 members.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Okay. Ms. Hogan spoke about a budget. In which budget do we find the amount allocated to the advisory body? Is it in the departmental budget?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

A short answer, please.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

It is probably in the departmental budget. I think it's about $15 million.

Ms. Hogan, am I right on that?

[Christine Hogan]

Yes, it's $15.4 million over three years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

It's now Mr. Bachrach's turn.