Environment Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's right.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to my colleague, Mr. Baker.

Minister, welcome.

Thank you to the officials who have made time for us today. It's great to see you all.

As you know, for many Canadians, sustainable environment also means sustainable wildlife stocks and protecting our natural resources and our natural environment. Recently, our committee studied Environment Canada's enforcement of CEPA. Over the past decade, the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development conducted audits on toxic substances and protecting fish from mining effluent, which called on Environment and Climate Change Canada's enforcement branch to implement a risk-based approach. We had a lot of discussions about the risk-based approach.

Can you explain what work has been done since then to address the commissioner's recommendation?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you. It's certainly a very important set of issues, and it's important to address the commissioner's audits.

We announced a new investment of about $51 million for the enforcement branch, which will help it to build on its current base and to develop world-class, scientific, robust knowledge of the risk to the environment and conservation due to non-compliance with laws and regulations.

There are four key areas of enhanced action. One is the risk analysis. It's putting in place a risk analysis process, which responds directly to the request from the commissioner. It enhances the field strength, so there's the onboarding of 24 new enforcement officers to support enforcement actions. There's additional training with respect to officer training on the ground, and better electronic infrastructure to meet the enforcement demands of the new age. The government is making the required investments to ensure that we are keeping Canadians safe and that polluters pay.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, that was really my primary question today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We now continue with Ms. Pauzé.

Ms. Pauzé, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you for being here, Mr. Minister, and thanks also to all those accompanying you.

In your speaking notes, you talked about an ambitious target to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40% to 45%. You say it is achievable. I feel that is worthy of being highlighted.

You talked about 64 new measures and about billions of dollars in new investments. Since those 64 new measures give you confidence as to the achievement of the targets, I'd like to hear you briefly describe those new measures. With the chair's permission, perhaps we can have written information on the criteria you chose to distribute all those billions.

In the decision-making process, are you using an evaluation grid? Which tools do you use to select projects and how do you choose the bodies responsible for managing them?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, my dear colleague.

Those are not simple questions, but I will try answer them. I would be happy to meet with you in order to discuss them some more.

We have selection criteria for the measures that we are planning to use, of course. However, there are measures in each sector of the economy that emits greenhouse gases. Of course, with vehicles, for example, we are making investments in infrastructure for electric vehicles, but we also have subsidies to make sure that Canadians can buy zero-emission electric vehicles. The measures deal with particular issues in each sector, and, of course, we have criteria to evaluate how effective the measures are.

Of course, I am very open to continuing the conversation for longer.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

If I understand you correctly, you have evaluation grids for each project and we could have them in writing. Thank you.

In your speech, you said that the funding for Environment and Climate Change Canada had increased. However, as I look through the Departmental Plan 2021-2022, I see that the planned expenditures in the category entitled “Taking Action on Clean Growth and Climate Change” are, in broad terms, $540 million in 2021-2022, then they drop significantly to $284 million in 2022-2023, and to $254 million in 2023-2024.

How do you justify that reduction? The money is just melting away.

Maybe it's a pointed question.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

I may ask the deputy minister to say a few words, but I can tell you that the reduction in funding for one particular five-year program was planned from the outset. It is called the low carbon economy fund. Yes, it is being reduced, but that was part of the plan.

As for the other measures, the estimates do not necessarily reflect the budget. With the Chemicals Management Plan, for example, the budget contains new investments, but they are not in the estimates.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

It is a concern that we can also see that 170 jobs will be paying for those budget cuts.

Can we have some details about those 170 jobs, such as the job titles, the departments affected or the number of positions eliminated?

If you want to do more, it seems to me that it will take more people. But you are eliminating jobs.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Once again, this is about the difference between the budget and the estimates. Of those 170 jobs, 160 are tied to the Chemicals Management Plan, for which an investment has been made in the budget. We have no plans to eliminate jobs.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Okay.

Earlier, you were talking with Mr. Baker and you had specifically mentioned certain funds.

Is any funding planned in order to add value to the circular economy in plastic?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

We are working to regulate plastic. Of course, we have an agreement with the provinces and territories to achieve zero plastic waste by 2030, but we are also establishing regulations under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act to make sure that we can impose bans on single-use plastic.

We will then perhaps make more investments, but we have invested in technologies that can be used to meet the challenges that plastics presents. We have already made some investments and we will make further ones in the future.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That is all the time you have, Ms. Pauzé.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister, and welcome to your team as well. It's good to see you.

I want to start with fossil fuel subsidies. Your government committed in 2015 to eliminating inefficient fossil fuel subsidies. I wonder if you could share with the committee an example of one of those inefficient subsidies in Canada currently.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

You're right that our government committed to phasing out inefficient fossil fuel subsidies by 2025. That's being done alongside our colleagues in the G20. We were pleased to see the U.S. follow our lead in making that commitment recently.

Canada has already eliminated eight tax breaks for the fossil fuel sector. I'm happy to get you a copy of the eight that we have reduced. We're working right now with Argentina on a peer review of fossil fuel subsidies, which will help us determine what we need to do to meet our next commitment, and we're going to continue to work to cut pollution across the country in practical and affordable ways.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll be continuing on the same theme, Minister.

As you know, this committee has been studying single-use plastics. One of the things we've learned is that oftentimes virgin resin is cheaper as a feedstock for manufacturing plastic than recycled inputs or post-consumer inputs. At the same time, we subsidize the fossil fuel industry to the tune of billions of dollars.

My question is: Should we not be reducing those subsidies so that companies have more of an incentive to use post-consumer material and invest in making the recycling process more effective, understanding that right now we recycle only a very small percentage of the total amount of plastic waste? If you could speak specifically to the subsidies for virgin resin, that would be great.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I would just say, yes, yes and yes in terms of your question.

Yes, we need to phase out inefficient fossil fuel subsidies, those that incent production and exploration with respect to fossil fuels. That's a commitment we've made. That's something we are working on right now.

Yes, we need to ensure that there is more in the way of the utilization of recycled plastics and non-virgin resin. That is something we intend to do under CEPA: put in place a requirement with respect to the percentage of recycled content that must be in products going forward.

Yes, we need to work with the Canada Plastics Pact and others on product design to ensure that recyclability is simpler, such that we can raise the very low levels of recycling that happen in this country right now.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I was a bit confused by an interview you did with Power & Politics. It felt like you were saying both that the transition to a low-carbon future was accelerating and that we were not to worry that it was going to take a long time, and we didn't need to worry too much about a just transition.

Your government has promised a just transition act. I know there are many workers across Canada who are very keen to see such legislation move forward in pace with the various climate legislation that you've put forward.

Can you update the committee on the status of the just transition act and when you might be tabling it in Parliament?

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

As you will know, we went through quite a process with respect to coal. There was a just transition process that we worked on with labour and industry to ensure that we were addressing issues for workers and for communities, given the commitment that was made to phase out thermal coal.

Certainly, there is work going on to think about and to work on a just transition strategy and act. I would say that a just transition is not just about skills retraining and those kinds of things for our workers who may be impacted through transitions we will be going through. It's also about economic diversification and economic opportunity and looking at the ways in which different sectors can effectively make those kinds of moves forward from an economic perspective.

That is something we are working on now. You will see it moving forward over the coming months.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sure you're familiar with the report from the Canada Energy Regulator, which essentially stated that, if Canada achieves its climate ambitions—he was talking about the old climate ambitions, not the recently updated ones—the TMX wouldn't be profitable. I'm just wondering which it is. Are we going to achieve our climate ambitions, or is the Trans Mountain expansion going to be profitable?

I suppose there's a third option. Is the regulator wrong?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I'm just barging in, which I'm not allowed to do, but I think he means the PBO report, not the CER report.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It may be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Anyway, it's a report.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

I would say a few things. This is going to be a transition. Everybody recognizes that it's going to be a transition. Of the cars on the road today, 97% use gasoline or diesel fuel to propel them forward and backward. It will take time before we get to the point where we're not using oil as a transportation fuel, so we need to be cognizant of that.

In the context of the work we are doing domestically, it is about working towards a future state where we have an electrified transportation fleet or a hydrogen-based transportation fleet, but that is going to happen over a long period of time. In the interim period, Canada simply needs to ensure that it's extracting full value for its resources, both domestically and also internationally. That is part of essentially making that transition and ensuring that we're doing it in a thoughtful, affordable way.