Evidence of meeting #34 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transition.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to turn to the FTQ.
Perhaps you can expand on your carbon dioxide and beer answer and explain more about the role that labour will play in the path to net zero. What are the opportunities you're seeing for your members?
5:05 p.m.
General Secretary, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
If I may, Mr. Chair, I will let my colleague Mr. Rondeau answer that question, as he is very active in the field.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
May 20th, 2021 / 5:05 p.m.
Patrick Rondeau Union Advisor, Environment and Just Transition, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The opportunities are linked to a just transition. It's as simple as that. That's why we want robust just transition mechanisms to accompany the legislation. In terms of the previous question, we want to see just transition principles or mechanisms mentioned in the legislation itself. This was promised by the current government during the last election to facilitate the engagement of workers. The purpose was to engage them in a social dialogue and include them in the discussions while clearly establishing the process and the funding required, as well as indicators of success.
All of this can only be done by allowing worker participation. That is to some extent what our colleagues at Unifor put forward about a week ago. They set the bar very high by saying that if workers are not part of the solution, they will become the problem. A just transition is often seen as based on a principle that prevents energy transition. The opposite is true. If we encourage working men and women to contribute to the search for solutions, we will achieve the energy transition much more quickly.
I'll give you one last example. In Saskatchewan, workers from the refinery field have retrained and entered the geothermal field. So it is possible. We just need to get these people involved and change the paradigm. That way, we'll get results.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you so much.
I'd like to turn to Dr. Henry. This is kind of a broad question, so feel free to expand.
I know you've touched on this, but do you agree that more information, through the reporting process, will be helpful to Canadian businesses as we move toward net zero?
5:05 p.m.
Senior Director , Natural Resources and Sustainable Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
More information is always helpful. Of course, it has to pertain to the details of what that information is going to look like. It's also, though, the input that we're really trying to put stress on.
When you look at an advisory body that's being proposed, I think it's going to have the ability to get to that 100,000-foot level in terms of its recommendations and what it's thinking about, and how it will plan the decarbonization strategies. The reality is that to make these reductions in a way that maximizes the efficiency of the reductions, ensures good jobs and ensures sustainable communities means you're going to have to include the people who are in the industry who know what the business models look like and who understand how the technologies can be applied.
Information out is great, but I think there is a need for a consultation process, so that the people who are going to be managing these different industries, through these strategies, are heard and are able to communicate what would need to happen to be able to scale some of these technologies or change these business models in a way that moves us toward these goals. I think that's something that isn't clear right now—where business is going to come in—and maybe an economic lens in the legislation will help to encourage that kind of input.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you so much.
I'll move to Dr. Anand.
I really liked your suggestion in terms of consulting beyond academia—that society needs to be consulted in a broader way. With the news, especially when I watch it, and in speaking with constituents, there seems to be only a narrow focus on a few issues.
I was wondering if you could expand on your comments on further consultation and consulting beyond academia.
5:10 p.m.
Professor, School of Environmental Sciences and Director, Guelph Institute for Environmental Research, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Yes. I think there should be consultation, definitely, but also engagement and communication. That can be a two-way street and it should be a two-way street.
Some of my thoughts on that have to do with looking at how people behave and looking at societal trends and societal changes. I know these are things government and business already do, but a lot of data that can be gained from those domains can then feed into our scenarios. There have been a few examples of unpredictable outcomes of how people might respond to interventions.
There's a bit of that in COVID. For the most part, I think, in terms of what the pandemic showed us, I was actually quite surprised at how quickly people responded to the required interventions that had to be taken and the changes in their lifestyles and behaviour. The same—
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you so much.
He's a tyrant. He's also our caucus chair. He does the same thing to us there as well.
I appreciate it.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Again, I'm sorry about that. We were over time, and into extra time.
Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Mr. Chair, I will be sharing this short two-and-a-half-minute period with Ms. May.
My question is for you, Professor Mousseau. You recently published an article with Professor Corinne Le Quéré in which you talked about improving governance.
I would like to know how you, as an expert and scientist, reacted to the composition of the committee presented by the minister.
I would ask that you respond quickly to give Ms. May some time.
5:10 p.m.
Professor, Departrment of Physics, Université de Montréal, Scientific Director, Trottier Energy Institute
In my opinion, there is still a lack of scientists and independent people around the table. The members are all volunteers. Now, when you're a volunteer and you're paid by an industry or a company, it's hard to be completely independent. That's one thing.
In some other committees, a stipend is provided. This allows members to determine what their task is and separate it from others. Another important aspect is that the secretariat, as it is structured now, is located at Environment Canada. This means that the secretariat is not independent. It is imperative that this committee be completely independent. The people who do the work behind the scenes also need to be separate from government.
5:10 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you so much.
My question is for Professor Burch.
Professor Burch, I want to confirm something with you. You talked about the U.K. target being 78% by 2035. That's against 1990 levels. Is that correct?
5:10 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
It sure is.
5:15 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Compared with Canada, where we're aiming at 40% to 45% below 2005 levels, we're not on the same graph. We're somewhere else.
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
That's right. Neither is the United States, basing its targets on a 2005 base.
5:15 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
If I have time.... I'm in a quandary. If this bill were to pass the way it is now, I think there's a risk that it would actually be dangerous, because it sets a target of net zero at 2050. Without the near-term target, could this bill actually be harmful?
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
I think a near-term target is crucial. The baseline shuffling is one way of obscuring the level of ambition that we are claiming we're reaching for. It's easy to lose that nuance, but by choosing that more recent baseline, we're masking all those years that our emissions were going up, so that reduction by 2030 or 2050 is much more modest.
I am absolutely of the mind that a near-term ambitious target is an important part of the process.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Burch, we've heard from several witnesses over the course of the past couple of meetings who have urged us to include economic indicators in Bill C-12. I'm wondering what your view is on this.
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
That also is a big question. It was interesting to watch the discussion unfold earlier about the phrase we all toss around, that what we can measure, we care about. I think that's an unfortunately reductionist view of the world. There are lots of things that are really important to Canadians that we do a very bad job of measuring.
The economic side of the transition is an important set of markers, certainly, to ensure that those folks whose livelihoods are tied up in a fossil-based economy will be transitioned in a just and equitable way towards a lower-carbon economy. However, beyond the economic indicators, there's more information that provides important signposts of whether or not we are progressing toward a future that's desirable for Canadians.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
What would some of those other markers or other indicators be that you think would be important to consider?
5:15 p.m.
Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
Indicators that help us understand the health of our ecosystems and give that voice to non-human nature are crucial. I think it's important to understand equity and inclusivity as some of the dimensions of a transition that we think we are all driving towards. Public health is a really important indicator as well. We could not see that in a more striking fashion than we have over the last year and a half.
This brings me back to something that is very near and dear to my heart, which is that I think there's robust evidence to suggest that a transition towards a decarbonized economy can deliver on multiple priorities simultaneously, not just reducing greenhouse gas emissions but many others as well.