Evidence of meeting #34 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transition.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David V. Wright  Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Corinne Le Quéré  Professor, Climate Change Science, University of East Anglia, As an Individual
Tara Peel  Health, Safety and Environment Coordinator, Canadian Labour Congress
Toby Heaps  Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Angela Crandall
Madhur Anand  Professor, School of Environmental Sciences and Director, Guelph Institute for Environmental Research, University of Guelph, As an Individual
Sarah Burch  Associate Professor, Department of Geography and Environmental Management, University of Waterloo, Executive Director, Interdisciplinary Centre on Climate Change, As an Individual
Aaron Henry  Senior Director , Natural Resources and Sustainable Growth, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Denis Bolduc  General Secretary, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Normand Mousseau  Professor, Departrment of Physics, Université de Montréal, Scientific Director, Trottier Energy Institute
Patrick Rondeau  Union Advisor, Environment and Just Transition, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I call this meeting to order.

I welcome everyone to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development. Pursuant to an order of reference of Tuesday, May 4, 2021, the committee is meeting to study Bill C-12.

This is our third and last meeting with witnesses. Next week, we dive into the clause-by-clause amending process.

I know all the members know the modus operandi for committee meetings. For any witness who has not appeared before a parliamentary committee during COVID, we ask that you put yourself on mute when you're not speaking, and that when you are speaking, you address the committee through the chair.

Today we have four witnesses in the first half and then five witnesses in the second half.

We have with us, as individuals, David Wright, assistant professor at the law faculty of the University of Calgary; and Professor Corinne Le Quéré from the University of East Anglia. I believe she is in the process of joining the call.

We have Tara Peel from the Canadian Labour Congress, and we're expecting Mr. Toby Heaps from Corporate Knights.

We'll start with Mr. Wright for five minutes, please.

2:35 p.m.

Professor David V. Wright Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Calgary, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon to all members of the committee.

My name is David Wright. I am an assistant professor with the faculty of law at the University of Calgary. Thanks so much for the invitation to speak to you today on this topic.

Let me begin by saying that it's refreshing to speak about climate with you today, because the weather in Calgary is absolutely putrid, with solid-state precipitation and single digits. It's better just to focus on climate today.

By way of background, my research is focused on environmental and natural resources law, with an emphasis on climate change. I'm a professor, but also a lawyer. I have been called to the bars of Nova Scotia, Nunavut and the Northwest Territories. I've been engaged in this field of climate law policy for about 15 years or so.

I was also with the office of the federal commissioner of the environment and sustainable development for five years, from 2011-16, and so I note with interest the revived role of the commissioner set out in Bill C-12.

Turning to Bill C-12, I'll begin by saying that in my view the bill represents a significant step forward in Canadian climate law and policy, and provides a much-needed basis for better coherence across the law and policy landscape. However, there are clearly areas for improvement.

My brief opening comments to you today will focus on three areas: one, federal-provincial jurisdiction; two, justiciability; and three, the role of the commission.

On jurisdiction, in practical terms, as you all know, Canada's Constitution is silent with respect to environmental matters, including climate change, and that results in overlapping jurisdictions between federal and provincial governments. The federal government has ample jurisdiction to act on climate change and to address climate change, and presently exercises that in a number of ways, including carbon pricing, as the Supreme Court spoke to just weeks ago.

The federal government also occupies a unique vantage point with respect to coordinating all jurisdictions of the federation. However, as the minister noted in his opening remarks to this committee on Monday, the federal government can't impose a top-down decarbonization agenda. It cannot, for example, compel provinces to take on any specific emissions reduction targets.

As such, a climate accountability statute like this can go only so far in terms of detailing what the entire federation can do to achieve Canada's emissions reduction commitments. It's clear that Bill C-12 was carefully drafted with a view to these constitutional and jurisdictional constraints, while the provisions focus almost entirely on federal measures. However, even with these constraints, in my view Bill C-12 can be improved in several ways and still respect the jurisdictional lanes.

First, the bill ought to be amended to make information about measures undertaken by provinces and territories a mandatory part of the emissions reduction plan required under section 10—and I can elaborate on that in the Q and A.

Second, and similarly, I suggest adding explicit mandatory requirements for the progress reports and assessment reports that include contributions of the provinces and territories to bring those gas emission reductions. To be clear, those suggestions would impose no obligation on provinces, just information gathering activities on the part of the federal government. There's certainly no jurisdictional or constitutional barrier to that. Again, in the Q and A, I can get into the rationale behind those suggestions.

On justiciability, the key question here, really, is the extent to which Bill C-12 includes or invites accountability through judicial scrutiny and remediation, in addition to the obvious political, parliamentary and public accountability woven into the proposed regime. In short, there's unpredictability on this front given the bill's present form. The key question for this committee and for those engaged in revising the bill—and I don't envy you your line-by-line task next week—is the extent to which such unpredictability ought to be managed and the extent to which it can be managed.

Here's what I mean. It's fairly simple to clear this up by including an explicit provision that provides for judicial review and remedies with respect to any obligations under the act, and I understand that the committee has received several proposals on this. It's a relatively straightforward option. I recommend it. It would virtually eliminate the justiciability concerns that you've been hearing about.

From there, though, things get a little more complex—the alternatives are complicated—and that's really engaging in amendments to specific provisions to at least reduce the basis for a court to find all or part of the act not justiciable. As you're likely aware, there was a Federal Court case on point, on this matter, dealing with the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act. That decision was affirmed by the Federal Court of Appeal.

In the interests of time I won't go into details—I'll leave that to the Q and A—but the upshot really is that the duties in the bill need to set out clear, mandatory language that provides courts with objective legal criteria to be applied. The bill does a reasonably good job of that, better than the KPIA did, but several provisions could be improved.

On a final note, in my final seconds, on the role of the commissioner, in my view, revival of this independent oversight role is a welcome feature of Bill C-12.

The office of the commissioner is a strong, credible, high-capacity office that can add value and contribute to the proposed transparency and accountability regime. I have a few small suggestions on that front, though, in relation to section 24.

In conclusion, in my view, Bill C-12, if it were to become law, would be an important, laudable step that will improve coherence across Canadian climate law and policy. However, as currently structured, it may not fully withstand shifting political winds—and really, that is the intention behind this initiative. In this way, the bill, as proposed, may not live up to expectations.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Professor Wright.

I see that Ms. Le Quéré has joined us.

Welcome back, Professor Le Quéré. This isn't your first appearance before the committee.

I'll ask you to give your opening remarks now. You have about five minutes.

May 20th, 2021 / 2:40 p.m.

Prof. Corinne Le Quéré Professor, Climate Change Science, University of East Anglia, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry, but I was having technical issues.

Thank you very much for hearing me today. I would like to say a few words about the governance of climate action in Canada, which has not worked in the past.

I've worked in the United Kingdom and have an international perspective on this question. Bill C-12 needs to guarantee that current climate objectives will be met. As I think you know at this committee, I flagged, when I was here in March, that Canada is the only G7 country whose emissions did not decrease in the decade prior to COVID. The COVID crisis has led to a temporary decrease in emissions, but because these are not structural decreases, as soon as the confinement lifts the emissions will come back up, possibly even above previous levels.

However, on the good side, the experience of the last 15 years shows that many countries have successfully implemented sustained cuts in emissions. I mentioned that I have worked in the U.K. I've also worked in France and other countries in the past. What I have done in preparation for this meeting is compare Bill C-12 with the corresponding laws in place in the U.K., which has the Climate Change Act, and in France, which has the energy-climate act. I have found ways in which Bill C-12 could be considerably strengthened to play a role in 2021 in curbing emissions in Canada.

There are mainly two directions in which Bill C-12 could be strengthened: first, by injecting a sense of urgency and clear signals to the population; and second, by strengthening the independence of the advice received by government.

On the first point, Bill C-12 has little sense of urgency and misses out on the clarity of signals. This is really important for guiding private sector investments. The objectives and pace of governance are too slow to deliver on the 2030 targets in particular, but also on the longer targets. This could be rectified by reporting on progress every year to maintain a clear and up-to-date picture of progress so far, or the lack thereof. You should set a milestone for this decade, for 2025 or 2026. Do not wait for 2030, as this is too far for sending a signal. You should determine milestones at least 10 years in advance. Both France and the U.K. determine their milestones 12 years in advance, and the private sector knows long ahead of time what the direction of travel is. Finally, you should base milestone levels on the advice of the net-zero advisory group.

On the second point, expert, independent, evidence-based advice is critical for making this bill work. Critical evidence-based advice takes into account not only the global constraints, as the net-zero target for 2050 does, but also national circumstances. What is the starting point? Canada is a federation and this comes with a set of constraints. There is a very specific fuel mix in Canada, which is different from that of the United States, the U.K. and many other countries. This can and will be an ally for the implementation of action by the government and Parliament. This point could also be considerably strengthened in Bill C-12, in particular by mandating that membership of the net-zero advisory body be based on expertise, not representation—you want these people there for their insights—and by providing sufficient and protected resources for operations to both the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development, who makes the assessment of what has happened up to now, and the advisory body, which will make a recommendation for a policy going forward.

I want to end by saying that Canada has made a great step forward with this new climate target for 2030 and the net-zero objective for 2050, but it has a poor track record internationally in delivering on climate change. It is very visible, and it damages Canada. Bill C-12 and its implementation of climate action are very timely to rectify this course.

Thank you very much.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Professor Le Quéré.

We're also joined by Tara Peel, the health, safety and environment coordinator for the Canadian Labour Congress.

Ms. Peel, you have the floor.

2:45 p.m.

Tara Peel Health, Safety and Environment Coordinator, Canadian Labour Congress

Good afternoon, chair and committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

The Canadian Labour Congress is Canada's largest central labour body. It advocates on national issues on behalf of more than three million working people from coast to coast to coast. Climate change is a vitally important issue for unions and all working people in Canada. That's why the CLC and Canada's unions welcome the Canadian net-zero emissions accountability act.

In the limited time I have, I will confine my remarks on the legislation to three areas: accountability mechanisms in Bill C-12, the just transition and the net-zero advisory body.

First, with respect to accountability, as others have said before me, Canada has never met a single climate target that it has set for itself. To break this pattern of missed greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets, we need a law that holds governments accountable for meeting its milestones, not for trying to meet them. Bill C-12 requires a rolling cycle of planning and reporting against the five-year milestones and the long-term targets. However, the bill provides too much leeway to set weak targets and issue plans with few details.

The act should set clear and firm obligations on the minister to meet or exceed robust minimum standards when setting targets and establishing emissions reduction plans. These plans need to contain robust modelling clearly demonstrating how the targets will be met. Accountability must be results-driven, not process-driven.

Additionally, there are inadequate accountability checkpoints in the crucial next decade. Bill C-12 uses milestone targets rather than carbon budgets. Compounding this, the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development would be required to prepare reports on the implementation of measures only once every five years. Now that the government has set a target for 2030, there is no justifiable reason not to hold the government accountable in 2025.

Finally, to remain aligned with the 1.5°C limit on warming, this legislation must require absolute reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, rather than relying on carbon offsets and hopeful technological solutions that will allow industry to continue to generate rising emissions.

I'll turn now to the just transition. The CLC appreciates the job-creation focus that went into developing Bill C-12, and we don't expect this legislation to achieve all of the goals of the promised just transition legislation. However, in our view this bill should contain specific references to a just transition as an important driver of climate ambition. Concrete just transition plans for affected workers and communities are essential, not only so we can increase climate ambition, but also to ensure that our actions meet our ambition. The bill should recognize that meeting climate milestones will require robust plans for a just transition of the workforce.

Finally, I'll turn to the net-zero advisory body. This body is an important component of the bill; there is no question. It is composed of representatives of diverse communities, including indigenous communities, government, the labour movement, environmental organizations, industry and academia, all with their own expertise. We are pleased that the CLC's president, Hassan Yussuff, will represent workers on the advisory body.

In our view, though, the net-zero advisory body must be positioned to provide strong science-based guidance on pathways to achieving the five-year milestones. While the advisory body would provide important guidance on measures and strategies for meeting Canada's emissions reduction milestones, there is currently no clear role for the advisory body in monitoring, assessing and reporting on progress towards meeting Canada's targets. In our view, there should be independent and frequent detailed assessment of whether Canada is on track to meet its targets.

The CLC welcomes this legislation, which has the potential to change Canada's history of never having met our climate targets. Strengthening certain areas of the bill could put Canada on track to meaningfully contribute to the crucial efforts of limiting warming to no more than 1.5°C.

Thank you very much. I look forward to your questions.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Ms. Peel.

We'll now go to Mr. Toby Heaps, CEO and co-founder of Corporate Knights.

2:50 p.m.

Toby Heaps Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

Thank you, Chair.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Do you have a headset, Mr. Heaps? Unfortunately, for the health and safety of the interpreters, witnesses must have headsets.

Do you have earbuds or something like this that might give appropriate sound quality? It's just that committees of the House have passed resolutions on this issue.

2:50 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

Toby Heaps

I'm sorry that I don't, but I just learned about this last night.

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I see. Perhaps you could follow the discussion and send us any comments.

We've passed a motion to the effect that we cannot proceed. We need interpretation, and the interpreters need the witnesses to have the appropriate gear.

Do you have any suggestions, Madam Clerk?

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

Mr. Chair, I find this situation very unfortunate. If I remember correctly, the motion says that, in cases where the interpretation service isn't available, we should ask the witnesses to come back another time. However, there isn't any other time, since this is the last day for witnesses to appear.

I don't want to harm the health or safety of the interpreters. I don't think that I have a choice.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Indeed. We passed this motion.

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

We can't reschedule Mr. Heaps' appearance. It's impossible. That's what we should have done, according to the motions that we passed.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We have a second panel later this afternoon, in about an hour. We'll try to squeeze you in. Is there any chance that you can get some earbuds or some kind of—

2:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

Toby Heaps

Yes. I think I can manage that. Thanks a lot.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Do you agree with this solution, Ms. Pauzé?

2:55 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

Yes.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Madam Clerk, does that seem like an acceptable solution?

2:55 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Angela Crandall

Yes.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Perfect.

2:55 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Chair.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes, Ms. May.

2:55 p.m.

Green

Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

I'm not a member of the committee. I find it really regrettable that a bill this important has only three sessions for witnesses. I just ask committee members to consider if a day couldn't be added to ensure that.... This is a really important piece of legislation. Obviously, we're really pressed for time to hear a range of witnesses. I put some names forward, and obviously they weren't chosen. I would just ask committee members to consider whether maybe they could add more time.

2:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We looked at all the suggested witnesses, did we not, Madam Clerk? They were all on that list that I saw and that everyone saw.