Environment Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Redekopp.

Mr. Baker, you have five minutes.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and congratulations on your election.

Thank you, all, for joining us today to speak with the committee.

I first want to make a clarification about something that was just being discussed. My understanding is that the tree planting program is actually led by Natural Resources Canada and not the Department of the Environment. I think that's an important context to have in terms of the discussion we were just having.

My first question is for you, Mr. Hayes, and it's with regard to the role that you play. For the sake of my constituents who are watching this in Etobicoke Centre or who will be reading the transcript of this, could you share in a minute or so the importance of the role you play, and what impact you or your office have had?

[Andrew Hayes]

The way the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is structured within the Office of the Auditor General provides a really important assurance to Parliament in the form of audit reports. We are able to use the entire mechanism that is in place for the Auditor General, which has clearly given Parliament credible and reliable reports for decades. We are able to use exactly that same process to support the accountability role that Parliament plays in the areas of environment and sustainable development.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

To take it a step further, why does that matter in the work that we're doing to protect the environment or to fight climate change? I'm just thinking about this from the perspective of a constituent who might be watching this. Why do those audits matter?

[Andrew Hayes]

The work that we do provides independent information to Parliament. We are not advocates. We have a responsibility to be independent. When we come forward with reports such as the one we provided recently on the transportation of dangerous goods, which bring forward areas for improvement the departments can make that will have a direct impact on the safety and health of Canadians, I can't think of a more important role.

That can be expanded to every audit that we do, whether it's climate change, where we're encouraging the government to take steps to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions and adapt to the effects of climate change, or biodiversity, where we are encouraging the government to follow through on the commitments it has made, and measuring and reporting on the progress it has made—where it has.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

My next question is for Ms. Hogan.

Ms. Hogan, could you speak to the importance of having environmental and sustainable development expertise involved across your audits?

[Karen Hogan]

One of the sustainable development goals—I believe it's sustainable development goal 16 that talks about good accountable institutions—gives us an opportunity to take a bit of that expertise and make sure it's everywhere. Every audit that we do, whether it be a financial audit or special examination or a performance audit, should be able to identify which sustainable development goal our work is touching and then be able to comment on whether or not the organization is helping to move that yardstick to improve the country.

Sustainable development goals connect with so many important issues that are relevant to all Canadians, and we have an opportunity, as an entire organization, to be able to help the government stay focused on improving in that area.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Hogan, in an earlier discussion that you were having with Ms. Collins, there was a discussion about reallocation of people within your organization.

I'm wondering if you could take the remaining time to talk about how they were reallocated and how that allows environmental and sustainable development issues to be addressed and audited in all of your audits.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you.

I don't think we reallocated our people, really. We just sat down and took a much more global view to our audit practices and ensured that we have the right people in the right place. That's a decision everyone should be looking at when they run an organization, but it's one that's forced upon you when you have some constraints related to your staffing. You recognize that you need to use your people in the best way possible.

Some of our performance auditors have a huge knowledge, as I said, and huge expertise in this area. They are still focusing in on that work, but they're also able to share that knowledge and increase it across our organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor again.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Audits are important to us as members of Parliament, and they help us do our job. The committee receives reports from the Office of the Auditor General, but does not receive any reports in advance from the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development. It seems to me that, if those reports came to us in preliminary form and were then presented to the Office of the Auditor General, that would be a solution. As a committee, we could bring ideas and our concerns to the table.

[Karen Hogan]

You are referring to some of the things that perhaps guide how we select our mandates or choose the subjects of our audits. We're always happy to hear what interests parliamentarians. It gives us another point of reference for choosing what we are going to audit.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

No, no, I wasn't in the—

[Karen Hogan]

You mean the submission of our reports. All our reports go to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts; that is how we are set up. Any parliamentary committee could invite us to appear and we would be very happy to talk about our work.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

All right.

I'm going to return to a question I asked at the very beginning. I am referring to Ms. Gelfand's final report, where she brought up the fact that fossil fuel subsidies are not clearly defined. We can see that the departments have not taken action, because subsidies have increased.

You represent reputable institutions, so isn't it time you had the power to demand follow-up when a report from the Office of the Commissioner comes out and no action is taken?

[Karen Hogan]

As Mr. Hayes mentioned earlier, I know the Standing Committee on Public Accounts requires an action plan after each of our reports.

We encourage all departments to act on recommendations we make in our reports and develop an action plan. If the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development wants to consider the reports issued by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, I would encourage you to also invite the departments to consider the reports at the same time and to ask them in advance—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Time is up, thank you.

Thank you for your answer.

Ms. Collins, you have two and a half minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

First, I have a quick yes or no question.

Ms. Hogan, you had mentioned that you hadn't met with any leaders from Canada's environmental organizations yet. I'm curious. Are you committed to meeting with some of them before the selection process happens?

[Karen Hogan]

I have received communication from them. If I don't find a good calibre candidate in the current search that I'm doing, I am committed to expand that to use, perhaps, the services of a headhunter if I need to.

I do invite them to reach out to our office if they would like to make some recommendations for us as we do this very important search for a new commissioner.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It sounds like you're not willing to meet with the people who are reaching out to you about this hiring process.

[Karen Hogan]

No one has asked specifically to meet with me about the process, but I have received letters from them, inquiring when I would start the process. I did write back to them to let them know that we started that on October 23.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Great, so you would be willing, if people wanted to meet with you about the selection of the new environment commissioner...?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm always very interested in meeting with stakeholders who are interested in our work, and I would love to see increased community engagement—

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much, Ms. Hogan. I have such limited time.

Three audits were paused in early 2020. When do you plan on restarting these audits, and what are the planned dates for completion?

[Andrew Hayes]

In terms of the audits that have been delayed because of a number of factors related to COVID, we do expect to report on the audits in 2021, in particular the natural health products and the implementation of the sustainable development goals in the spring, and the audit on water basins in the fall.