Environment Committee on Aug. 30th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's where we're going. It's time to debate and vote on the motion.

Are you finished your intervention?

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I would add that, after seeing the media this morning, I understand that Mr. Guilbeault indicated that he had become aware of this problem and was in discussions with Hydro-Québec. However, I don't think that settles the issue, for the moment, of using biomass in energy projects. I'm open to discussion on that. I'm asking the committee for a lot of flexibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

We're open to that discussion as well. That shows how flexible we are.

Of course, our goal is for the government to cancel its radical Liberal decree. However, we want to work here, on this committee, and if we're going to do that, we might as well work with relevant information. That's why we suggested people from Boralex and Hydro-Québec, green energy producers, on our list of witnesses. We wanted these individuals to be able to describe the impact of the Liberal decree concerning boreal caribou on green energy, which is exactly the objective of this motion.

However, rather than adding a day, we would be adding hours to the meetings already scheduled.

Mr. Chair, we would therefore like to add four elements to my colleague's motion. Therefore, we are tabling the following motion, which is largely based on what is being done—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

So you're amending Mr. Simard's motion.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

In fact, for the sake of fluidity, here is the motion including the amendments I have just briefly discussed. It reads as follows:

“Given that the Committee advocates a global and integrated approach, and that the protection of any endangered species is closely linked to the protection of the environment and the ability of the Quebec Government to put forward green strategies to replace fossil fuels with clean energy projects such as wind, biomass, and hydroelectricity, and that a mobilization of the forestry sector took place in Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean yesterday calling on the federal government to abandon the radical job-destroying decree. That the committee add an additional hour to the meetings already scheduled for the present study, in order to study the potential effects of an emergency decree on the deployment of clean energy projects and on the infrastructure required for the smooth operation of these networks, and that the Committee invite Boralex and Hydro-Québec; and, because the Minister of Environment violated the first motion that has already passed to appear in the 7 days requested by the committee, the Committee summon him to appear before this committee for no less than 2 hours, before September 16, 2024.”

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There are two motions. In fact, we are really—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I am willing to negotiate a few changes, but this proposal is not exactly in keeping with the spirit of the motion. Agreeing to add an hour is one thing. I know that there have been discussions between the minister and Hydro‑Québec. Will this issue resolve itself? I hope so. I would be very happy if it did.

Mr. Chair, I propose that we add to our study an additional two-hour meeting on energy. My colleague, Mr. Deltell, could ask to invite representatives from Boralex, if he so desires. We could hear from people. There are all sorts of biomass projects. Recently, in the news, we saw that some indigenous communities have decided to move forward with this sort of project to reduce their carbon footprint. We could each submit witnesses.

I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but I think that by talking about a “radical decree”, we are getting into a debate that will put our government colleagues' backs up. What I want is for us to be able to examine this essential issue, which perhaps shows that we also need to calculate the cost and inconveniences of the decree, because the forestry industry plays an important role in helping us to meet our greenhouse gas emissions reduction targets.

As we have been saying from the start, we need to find a balance between protecting the species and protecting jobs. I am saying that in good faith. Above all, the purpose of this motion is to say that the energy transition to clean energy is a critical part of the equation. I would therefore like us to agree right now to add an extra meeting. Then, we could propose witnesses later. That way, we could get back to hearing from the witnesses who are here and my NDP colleague could ask his last few questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Boulerice and Mrs. Chatel have something to say.

I just want to clarify something first. We are examining Mr. Simard's motion to add an extra meeting, to examine the energy transition and to invite witnesses, including representatives from Hydro‑Québec. That is the motion we are debating.

Meanwhile, Mr. Deltell submitted an alternative motion. This is just a piece of advice, but if we don't want to get bogged down in this matter, we need to keep things simple. We will hear from Mr. Boulerice and Mrs. Chatel. I don't want to influence the debate, but if Mr. Deltell just wants to make a few small amendments and add a few phrases to Mr. Simard's motion and if we all agree to add an extra meeting, then we could deal with this rather quickly. Otherwise, we will have to get into amendments and subamendments. If that is the case, then we will have to dismiss the witnesses because we don't have much time left. That is what I wanted to say.

Mr. Boulerice.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think that, since Mr. Simard moved his motion first, then we need to debate it and dispose of it first. On our end, we agree that we should take the time to consider the impact that this will have on the biomass industry and on Hydro‑Québec's green energy projects. I think that those are relevant issues. I was not convinced at the start that we needed to add another whole meeting, but perhaps we do, if we are bringing in more witnesses.

Today, the NDP has heard a lot of people saying that we have not heard from enough scientists and that we are not paying enough attention to science. We would like to invite some biologists to hear what they have to say. We could find experts to come talk to us during that meeting. We could invite representatives from Boralex and Hydro‑Québec, as well as scientists and biologists.

I would like to dispose of Mr. Simard's motion simply because it was moved first, but also because the references and language used in Mr. Deltell's motion are partisan and could cause controversy. It could give rise to a lot of debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mrs. Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think this is important. These are important issues. I don't think it will do anyone any good to make this political, as the Conservatives are doing. I completely agree with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Martel on a point of order.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Chair, could we dismiss the witnesses, who are waiting—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm not ready to dismiss the witnesses, Mr. Martel.

We may be able to settle this issue rather quickly. I think that the witnesses want to have their say. If certain witnesses need to leave because they have a meeting or an appointment, then they can let me know, but for the time being, I want to focus on the motion.

Please continue, Mrs. Chatel.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I'm used to being interrupted by the Conservatives in this committee. I think that every time a woman speaks in this committee, she gets interrupted, but that's the way it goes.

Yes, I completely agree with the proposal to invite representatives from Hydro‑Québec. I also agree that we should talk about biomass and the green energy industry. Like Mr. Boulerice, I would really like to hear from scientists and biologists in that regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

If I understand correctly, we can do all that, if we adopt Mr. Simard's motion.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Just a minute, Mr. Deltell. I will give you a chance to speak again after.

Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

We could compromise. I heard what Mr. Boulerice was saying. We could set up a meeting and invite people from the energy sector in the first hour. I will not include any names in the motion.

As for the Hydro‑Québec representatives, I don't know whether they will be satisfied with the discussions with the department. There are definitely biomass projects, and I'm sure the Boralex representatives will want to address the committee.

In the first hour, we could focus on the connection between clean energy and the decree, and during the second hour, we could invite experts, which I think would make Mr. Boulerice happy. If we agree on that, I am ready to vote right away so that we can get back to what we were doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I would say that the motion makes all of that possible. We just need to set up the meeting.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would just like to remind the committee of what we proposed in the motion that I read earlier.

First, we proposed that “the Committee invite Boralex and Hydro-Québec”. That is what the Bloc member wants. I would like to remind the committee that the Conservatives were the only ones who included Boralex and Hydro-Québec on the witness list last week. Of course, we are in favour of what we are proposing. Second—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am rising on a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Just a moment, Mr. Deltell. There is a point of order.