Environment Committee on Sept. 16th, 2024

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

It is an interim measure to be put in place until the enclosures become too small again and we have to release the animals into the wild. At that point, we want to release them into an environment where we won't have to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars per animal to ensure their survival. Habitat is protected and repaired, while new forestry methods are found to foster wealth. We have to look at predator control, captive custody, total custody as in Val‑d'Or, and maternity penning, as we see elsewhere for other species. Ultimately, a genotype could be selected that is better able to live in a disturbed environment. These are all things that scientists know and have been recommending to the government since 2014.

In 2014, there was a whole thinking process about how to go about it. We know how to do it.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

From what I understand, this is a temporary solution, but a solution like this can be extended over a period of time. When you talk about significant investments and costs to recreate a larger area, that's a societal choice.

Do we want to invest in fences or do we want to protect a forestry economy that is very important to Quebec and the regions?

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

If I may, I will answer that.

Logging operations experts will tell you that right now the social cost of all the forest functions being compromised is being pushed down the road by not maintaining mature forests in sufficient quantity. This goes far beyond what we are currently seeing with the caribou. In the forest, air is filtered, water is filtered, carbon is—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

We've understood that, Mr. St‑Laurent. Thank you. Unfortunately, my time is limited.

I have a question for Mr. Vachon from the CSD.

Mr. Vachon, in your opening remarks, you used the metaphor of not seeing the forest for the trees. Are you claiming that we are creating another problem with this order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Vachon.

[Luc Vachon]

Actually, I meant that we are diverting our attention from all the problems in the forestry sector by focusing specifically on caribou. Obviously, they have to be taken into account as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

I'd like to start off with Mr. Cloutier. You've made a couple of comments. Our colleague, Mr. Simard from the Bloc, had some excellent questions about the role of labour in these discussions. I'd like to build on that.

In Ontario, when I was first elected in 2015, we worked with your Ontario Unifor colleagues to recover the automotive industry, which was struggling after years of neglect by the Conservative federal government. The role that labour played in recovering Ontario's automotive sector was absolutely critical.

You've mentioned sustainability. You've also mentioned the rights of caribou, something that might be surprising to people who don't know labour as well. Could you comment on how critical it is for labour to work with the federal government on safety, on sustainability and on working on protecting the caribou herd at the same time as protecting jobs?

[Daniel Cloutier]

Yes, we recognize that there are disturbances that affect caribou. Our members feel that we should not bury our heads in the sand and pretend that doesn't exist.

Finding appropriate solutions requires concerted efforts among workers, entrepreneurs, first nations, environmental groups and, of course, scientists. It is a matter of land use and economic survival. It's also a matter of maintaining the regular activities of communities that have traditionally been established for hundreds of years in these regions. We have to find that balance. We have presented a number of concrete solutions and proposals to both the federal and provincial governments to achieve this.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, and thank you to your union brothers and sisters in Quebec for the great work that you're doing and will continue to do.

I'd like to go over to Mr. St-Laurent on the sustainable development goals that were introduced in 2015. There was progress up until the pandemic, and I've read just over the weekend that we've been sliding backwards as a world.

Where 193 countries have agreed to these sustainable development goals, and given that SDG 15 is about life on land being critical to this discussion, could you talk about the importance of restimulating the SDG discussions globally?

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

That's a great question.

That's very important as well. Our view is currently somewhat distorted by a three-pronged conception of sustainable development: the environment, the economy and society.

The original version of this way of thinking—it's important for people to know this—is based on concentric circles. We live on only one planet, Earth, which can provide us with resources. We need to make people and societies prosper.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Simard has the floor.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. St‑Laurent, I really liked your analogy of the hole in a boat.

In your opinion, can forest fires and insect infestations also play a role in caribou survival and the state of their territory?

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

Yes, of course, but you have to remember that, since the last ice age a few thousand years ago, caribou have evolved alongside forest fires and insect outbreaks. We are currently seeing an increase in disturbances at a rate never seen before. That's called the Anthropocene. Human beings are changing the surface of the earth in ways we have never seen in the past.

The primary beneficiary of the forest in Quebec, the primary entity to harvest the forest, is fire, followed by insect infestations. As I said in my earlier answer, if we consider natural disturbances before we calculate forestry potential and harvest allocation, the result will be a bit less dissonant. Of course, in order to do that, you have to take fire regimes into consideration. That's why I talked about regional plans, caribou habitat assessments and restoration—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

However, forest management has an important role to play as well.

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

Yes. In fact, it has a major role, since fires have little effect on caribou until we build a road to recover the wood.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That is indeed a major role.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Vachon, you rightly talked about the insecurity of a number of communities, union members and workers, but when Mr. Saint‑Laurent talked about job creation related to restoring or protecting forest habitat, I saw you shaking your head a little.

Can you tell us a little more about your view of a just transition for workers and the creation of new jobs in the forestry sector?

[Luc Vachon]

There are indeed opportunities, because we know that the forestry industry is bound to be transformed one way or another. We have to get away from the narrow focus on two-by-fours and two-by-sixes. Even businesses know that and are saying it. They are now looking at integrated complexes. They are diversifying their operations to reduce their dependence on all that so that they need a smaller harvest volume.

Taking that into account, the point Mr. St‑Laurent is raising is that there will probably be new jobs in reforestation or a shift of jobs toward that. As was mentioned, there needs to be more emphasis on reforestation. I'm saying that now, but I'm not the one who decided on it. Regarding the transition and the support that will be needed, it is important to show people an overall perspective so that they know where we stand and where we are going. It reduces insecurity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Leslie for three minutes.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will start with Mr. St-Laurent.

I appreciate your fairly common-sense understanding of what the realities are here. Forestry changes the forest; the logging roads change dynamics. Therefore, we have new prey. Moose and deer come in. Predation follows, and they don't care what they're eating.

My question is this: You mentioned the hundreds of studies that you've reviewed on this topic. Is there a consensus from them, or, in your view, what is the timeline that would be expected for the forest to recover to a state in which moose and/or deer no longer find it appealing—from this particular edict from the federal government and/or adding remediation efforts as well?

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

That's a great question.

In fact, it depends on where you are in Canada and the rate at which the forest comes back in each region. Currently, the general rule is 50 years. After 50 years, the forests become favourable to caribou because they are less favourable to predators and other prey.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

What happens in the meantime?

[Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent]

In the meantime, there is a cascade of species that become very abundant, highly favoured or somewhat less favoured. For example, if a forest is logged, it will favour bears for the first 10 years. Then it will favour moose. Hunters will tell you that. Then wolves will move in. Meanwhile, the caribou that live in the area suffer from predation every year. As a result, it takes between 15 and 20 years between the logging and the time the caribou are extirpated locally.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

It seems reasonable to me to consider that we must.... You mentioned that, in a park nearby but in a different area, there were different remedies used. I note from Ecological Applications' 2024 article entitled “Effectiveness of population-based recovery actions for threatened southern mountain caribou”—which is the same species, just in B.C.—that their study concluded that penning and wolf reduction were the two most important recovery actions with the annual instantaneous rate of increase.

My question is this: Why would we not take immediate action such as that, which we know works, in the meantime and allow the industry to work with researchers, with the Quebec government and/or with the federal government, if needed, to find solutions in the longer term?