Environment Committee on March 27th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good morning.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, Mr. Guilbeault. It is a pleasure to see you. There have been a lot of changes since your last visit and this gives us a lot to discuss. The committee is very grateful to you for being here.

I would also like to welcome the new Deputy Minister for Environment and Climate Change Canada, Mr. Forbes, and the other witnesses from the department who are here with us.

Without further ado, I yield the floor to you for ten minutes, Minister.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Minister of Environment and Climate Change]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everyone.

It’s a pleasure to join the members of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development to discuss the 2023‑24 Main Estimates, as well as the 2022‑23 Supplementary Estimates (B) and (C) for my portfolio, which includes Environment and Climate Change Canada, the Parks Canada Agency and the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada.

With me today are Chris Forbes, the new Deputy Minister for Environment and Climate Change Canada; Linda Drainville, Assistant Deputy Minister Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer for Environment and Climate Change Canada; Catherine Blanchard, Vice President, Finance Directorate, Parks Canada Agency; Terence Hubbard, President of the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada; and Joelle Raffoul, Acting Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Financial Officer of the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada.

Before I get started, I would like to recognize that we are meeting on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg, the original stewards of the lands we share today.

I take very seriously our responsibility to strengthen the nation-to-nation, Inuit-to-Crown and government-to-government relationship with first nations, Inuit and Métis, through respect, co-operation, partnership and recognition of rights.

I see this as critical to the ambitions and actions, throughout my portfolio, that we’re discussing today.

Let me begin with Environment and Climate Change Canada.

The department works in collaboration with Canadians across the country, with all sectors of the economy and society and all faiths, including 2SLGBTQIA+, racialized and vulnerable people of all ages and, importantly, indigenous peoples.

The department leads, supports, and enables ambitious actions on a wide range of issues and concerns domestically and abroad.

From tackling climate change and pollution and managing toxic substances to slowing the loss of biodiversity and protecting nature and species at risk, plus safeguarding Canadians through its weather and environment predictions, our government's success in this regard is vital to protect the health and well-being of Canadians, the economy and the environment.

Priorities that go hand in hand.

As you know, we are in a critical decade in which we will have to address the triple crisis of climate change, biodiversity loss and global pollution, in particular by plastic. This is a crisis that requires integrated and accelerated efforts if we want to avoid the most catastrophic impacts that threaten not just our standard of living, but also the future of humanity on this planet.

That is why the department is collaborating on a number of ambitious actions, such as achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, which is the best way to limit temperature increases to 1.5°C.

It's helping to create the conditions necessary for protecting at least 30% of lands and waters in Canada by 2030.

Scientific research shows this is the minimum that’s needed to address the dual crisis.

And as members of the committee know well, when it comes to the environment, collaboration defines success.

That is why I'm pleased to note that the department played a vital role in helping to ensure that the global targets align with Canada's target in the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework negotiated at COP15 last December in Montreal.

To enable continuous progress that will enable us to achieve our goals, Environment and Climate Change Canada’s 2023‑24 Main Estimates amount to $2.4 billion, a 24% increase over last year. This includes about $1 billion for planned operating expenditures, over $100 million in planned capital expenditures and more than $1.2 billion in grants and contributions. Total statutory costs amount to $112 million.

In sum, the 2023‑24 Main Estimates represent a net increase of approximately $478 million over the total 2022‑23 Main Estimates.

This increase is primarily due to new funding for nature-based climate solutions, the recapitalized low-carbon economy fund and the low-carbon economy fund re-profile. New funding will help to protect old-growth forests by advancing urgent protection of vital ecosystems, wildlife habitats and species at risk, and by protecting carbon stores in these areas.

Recapitalizing the low-carbon economy fund will help support projects to reduce greenhouse gas emissions that both contribute to Canada's 2030 targets and align with goals for net-zero emissions by 2050.

This fund will support the renewal of the existing streams—the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund and the Low Carbon Economy Challenge Fund—and add two new streams: the Indigenous Leadership Fund to support Indigenous-led clean energy and energy efficiency projects and an Implementation Readiness Fund to support applicants advancing proven low-carbon technologies.

Through the 2022‑23 Supplementary Estimates (B) exercise, ECCC increased its reference levels in the amount of $189.7 million. This update included new funding for the highly successful United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity, COP15.

Funding sought also included initial requirements for the recapitalized Low Carbon Economy Fund as well as funding for the implementation of the next phase of the Oceans Protection Plan and for advancing a circular economy for plastics in Canada.

Mr. Chair, ECCC also participated in the 2022‑23 Supplementary Estimates (C) process in order to drive further progress in the fight against climate change and to protect and conserve nature.

Through this process, the Department’s reference levels were increased by a net amount of $15.8 million bringing the Department’s total financial authorities to $2.3 billion in 2022‑23. These Estimates included a funding transfer from Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, to support the Partnership for Market Implementation as well as funding for the British Columbia Old Growth Nature Fund.

Mr. Chair, let's turn to Parks Canada.

For 2022‑23, Parks Canada received...

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I have a point of order.

Does the Minister have five minutes or...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

He has 10 minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

He has 10 minutes.

I'm sorry.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I'll just start the last paragraph again.

For 2022‑23, Parks Canada received $75.1 million through Supplementary Estimates (B) and sought $9.9 million through Supplementary Estimates (C).

Supplementary Estimates (B) funds helped Parks Canada invest in its assets to support transition to long-term sustainability, support the Trans Canada Trail and invest in community trail connections to Rouge National Urban Park and implement the Federal Framework to address the Legacy of Residential Schools.

Supplementary Estimates (C) funds will support disaster relief and restoration efforts through the Hurricane Recovery Fund, implement the Impact Assessment Act and transfer funds from the Department of Natural Resources to support the planting of trees at various Parks Canada administered sites.

Parks Canada’s 2023‑24 Main Estimates are $1.3 billion.

This represents an increase of $305.4 million, or 31%, when compared to last year's. This increase is primarily due to funding to help Parks Canada transition towards the long-term sustainability of its infrastructures. The Parks Canada mandate is to protect national treasures in Canada.

In many places, its success centres on assets, such as the Fortifications of Quebec or the Halifax Citadel.

Beyond welcoming visitors and being a source of shared pride for Canadians, assets such as the Trent-Severn Waterway and the Trans-Canada Highway also support critical functions, such as transportation, water management and services to residents and businesses.

Funding will initiate critical, time-sensitive work on Parks Canada’s assets. This includes high priority capital projects, asset assessments, inspections, and critical maintenance to improve asset condition and greening operations across the country.

Funding in the 2023‑24 Main Estimates will also go towards the agency’s work to support healthy natural infrastructure and increased access to nature and Canada’s conservation targets. It will also strengthen the protection and recovery of species at risk and their habitats and, importantly, advance reconciliation through Indigenous leadership in conservation.

Parks Canada is working with partners to explore the expansion of the Park System with a focus on urban parks and connecting more Canadians with nature and cultural opportunities.

The agency will continue working with partners to consider the creation or enhancement of national protected areas and cultural landscapes as well as the creation or enhancement of urban parks and ecological corridors.

Parks Canada is also committed to supporting place-based approaches to indigenous leadership and stewardship of the lands, water and ice of traditional territories, ancestral homelands and treaty lands within Parks Canada-administered places.

Finally, Parks Canada will continue to protect, present, and manage existing national historic sites, national parks, heritage canals, national marine conservation areas and one national urban park in Canada for the benefit and enjoyment of Canadians and visitors from around the world.

Turning now to the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada...

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Minister, it has been 11 minutes now. I would like us to have more time for questions. We will of course touch on the subjects you were about to address.

Mr. Deltell, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, Minister, Deputy Ministers, welcome to your House of Commons. I am very happy to see you, Minister.

You all know that climate change is real and we have to make every effort to reduce pollution. Minister, I would like to point out that your official vehicle is entirely electric. I know that whenever possible, in the best of all possible worlds, you take the train to travel from Montreal to Ottawa. Last week, in fact, we cut short a conversation because you had to get to the train station.

That is why, two weeks ago, on March 13, like a lot of people, I went to the International Summit on Electric and Smart Transportation. There were thousands of people there, including the Prime Minister, who travelled to that event on a Challenger plane. It is a 22‑minute flight. That was not the first time the Prime Minister had used a Challenger to travel between Ottawa and Montreal. On December 6 and 7, he did that exact return trip on board a Challenger.

Let's be clear. It is to be expected that the Prime Minister will travel around Canada. It is also to be expected that there will be security measures.

However, in all sincerity, Minister, what do you think about your Prime Minister, a member of Parliament from Montreal, taking a plane just to travel between Ottawa and Montreal, a 22‑minute flight?

Is the environment really being considered?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Deltell. Thank you also for your kind words. It is a pleasure to be able to work with you and your colleagues on these issues.

As you said, as much as I can, I try to take the train between Montreal and Ottawa. Obviously, I am a minister; I am not the Prime Minister. I have no protective service personnel who have to accompany me everywhere, which would make travelling by train very difficult for the Prime Minister, for example.

Apart from the question of the Prime Minister, we are working, with my colleague Mr. Alghabra, to make significant improvements to rail transportation service in the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, so it will be even easier, faster and more reliable to use the train than it now is. A number of studies indicate that this will reduce the use of air travel in that corridor, and will accordingly reduce pollution.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That is very interesting about the train, but my question was specifically about the use of a plane, which is highly polluting, as we know, for a 22‑minute flight.

I would also point out that last week, the Prime Minister's Challenger made a ten-minute flight empty. Someone who knows a bit about aviation is well aware that take-off and landing are the points when a plane uses the most fuel. It's not when it's flying at 40,000 feet.

As Minister of the Environment, can you tell us that this was okay because it was necessary for security?

Remember your first election, in 2019: your party and your leader used two planes for travelling during the election campaign, one of which was a Boeing 737‑200, one of the most polluting planes on the market.

Minister, I will ask you the question again: as Minister of the Environment, is it not time to cut down on the use of airplanes, to be consistent, when whole days are spent all around the world lecturing everyone about the environment, as the Prime Minister does?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I don't agree with your characterization of what the Prime Minister says about these issues, but we can agree to disagree.

We can spend a lot of time looking at anecdotal cases, but my role is to work to reduce the entire population's carbon footprint. The good news is that greenhouse gas emission inventories in the last two years show that greenhouse gas emissions in Canada are declining. You're going to tell me that in 2020 there was a pandemic, and that's true. There was no pandemic in 2019, however, and greenhouse gas emissions declined. The next inventories will be released in early April, and I think we are going to continue seeing that there is good news in Canada in this regard.

We can point fingers at this person or that person, but I am working to help millions of Canadians reduce their carbon footprint, particularly in the transportation sector.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Using two airplanes to conduct an election campaign is something that had never been seen before. That isn't an anecdote, it's a fact. I don't know how you could have tolerated that, particularly since it was your first election campaign.

I'm going to move on to another subject now: COP27. There were Canadians who took part in it. According to the lists we have, Canadian taxpayers paid over $1 million for hotel room accommodation for 113 participants. There were rooms at $1,500 or $1,545 a night.

Did you really need 113 participants, Minister, when everyone has the ability to participate online? How did you manage to have such a large delegation for 12 days? I understand it was a bit unique, doing it in Egypt, but did you really need 113 people? Would there not have been some way to save some money on that point?

What was the environmental footprint of these 113 people whose stay cost taxpayers $1 million?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Concerning the size of the Canadian delegation, I would remind you that it is one of the most open delegations. Canada is one of the rare countries in the world that includes parliamentarians like some of you in its delegation, along with Indigenous representatives, young people, union representatives, and industry representatives, including representatives of the oil industry. In fact, I defended that industry's presence in the delegation, because I believe that as a democratic society, our delegation has to reflect the make-up of Canadian society.

The fact that I don't like what some people have to say does not mean that it should not be heard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I will pass the floor to Mr. Turnbull.

I'm sorry—I have Mr. Turnbull, but it's Ms. Taylor Roy.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello, Minister.

First, I would like to thank you and the senior officials for being here today. I also want to highlight the progress that you and your team have made in implementing the calls for action that fall within your mandate.

Now I'll turn to English, which is much easier for me.

First, I want to thank you for all the work you've done for millions of Canadians in reducing our emissions and fighting climate change.

I'd like to turn to some issues that have perhaps a broader impact on that topic. I'd also like to acknowledge that my fellow committee member, Lloyd Longfield, isn't here today. He has done so much work on this and has actually prepared the questions that I am asking on his behalf.

The first question I'd like to ask is regarding the net-zero accelerator initiative. In particular, in these estimates there is a transfer of $1.26 million from the Department of Industry to the Department of the Environment. I'm wondering how specifically that is going to be used, because this is obviously a very important initiative in reaching our climate targets.

Thank you.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

The strategic innovation fund, an $8-billion fund, and the net-zero accelerator are providing funding to support projects to accelerate decarbonization on a very large scale. We're seeing the benefits of this tool on an almost daily basis when we look at the work that my friend and colleague, the Minister of Innovation and Economic Development, Mr. Champagne, has done in the process of transforming Canada's auto industry. Right now, we're seeing the largest investment in the history of the auto sector for decarbonization and for pivoting this sector from producing internal combustion engines to electrification.

Even President Biden was singing the praises of the Volkswagen announcement that was made a couple of weeks ago. More specifically, the transfer of funds via this memorandum of understanding will support a number of activities at Environment and Climate Change Canada, including conducting technical reviews, the assessment of GHG-reduction potential, and alignment with NZA—the net-zero accelerator—objectives, for a statement of interest.

Basically, what the department does is provide technical and GHG result-monitoring expertise during the due diligence process and project implementation phases, as well as contributing to ad hoc policy regulatory and technical discussions impacting project approval and implementation.

We're working very closely with our colleagues from Industry to ensure that the projects that are chosen have the most impact, obviously from an economic perspective but also from a greenhouse gas reduction perspective.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to turn to a question about the Impact Assessment Agency. The budget for that agency is being decreased by $5 million. I question why, and why now. Especially in Ontario, as you know, given the vital role that the Impact Assessment Agency is playing or will play in protecting the greenbelt, it's of great concern. Thank you so much for your recent announcement regarding that. I think the work that the Impact Assessment Agency is doing is vital.

My question is this: Why is it being reduced right now by $5 million?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for your comment on the Greenbelt. Like many, we feel that it's important for the federal government to ensure not only the environmental integrity of the Rouge national park, but also the environmental integrity of protected lands in Ontario. The decrease of $5 million is actually a transfer to CIRNAC related to the indigenous agenda. As such, it falls under the transfer payment vote and not under the agency's operating vote; in other words, it has no bearing on the agency's capacity to deliver high-quality impact assessments.

I totally agree with you. If there was ever a time when we needed a strong, robust, independent Impact Assessment Agency, it's now. We fought for this. In fact, we're still fighting in the Supreme Court, unfortunately, against a number of provinces that don't want to have truly meaningful and impactful impact assessments that would include indigenous people and that would include looking at the impacts of climate change on projects that are being proposed. We disagree with those views, which is why we're fighting all the way to the Supreme Court to be able to have a robust system in Canada.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I appreciate your taking on that fight. I know it's difficult when you're collaborating with the provinces to make progress and at the same time sometimes have to challenge them. I appreciate the dual role you're playing there.

Very quickly, I'd like to go back to the “taking action on clean growth and climate change” initiative. That fund, as we know, is very important for research, and again, there's an increase of $350,000 of support for that. I'm wondering how that will be used as well.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

One of the ways it will be used is through the academic engagement strategy. Environment and Climate Change Canada has launched a competitive process to fund research related to priority policy areas. For example, the Economics and Environmental Policy Research Network was first funded via a five-year, $500,000 contribution agreement, and we renewed that after 2017—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to stop there and go to Madame Pauzé.

Ms. Pauzé, the floor is yours.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you and all the people with you for being with us today, Minister.

I am going to start by talking about COP15 and congratulating you on the agreement being signed. I think you and everyone who attended with you influenced the outcome that led to the agreement. However, certain initiatives were taken that are contrary to biodiversity objectives. As we know, biodiversity and climate change are closely connected.

I would like you to speak about Trans Mountain. According to the information documents distributed to us for today's meeting, $2.4 million has been awarded in grants and contributions. That small amount is not what interests me; it is the $30.5 billion figure. We are talking about a 44% increase since the beginning of the pandemic, and I find this disturbing and frustrating. I understand there has been inflation, and I imagine that affects the project as well. I would note in passing that this project has been opposed by the Bloc Québécois since 2018, the year it was announced.

A number of independent analysts concluded, after this $30.5 billion was announced, that the resale of the Trans Mountain, TMX, network to private equity firms would call for guarantees from the government for the debts contracted by investors and the banks that finance them. The government said that once the sale was completed, it would be possible to recover it all. In my opinion, we can forget about that; it isn't going to work.

Minister, as you know, it is urgent that structuring measures be adopted in connection with the labour force, the legislation and strategies for reducing the carbon intensity of heavy industry sectors. It is particularly urgent that innovative technological solutions involving renewable energy be funded. These are all sectors where dollars could have been invested.

I recall that when the project was going to cost $7 or $8 or $10 billion, the leader of my party said that the Bloc Québécois was prepared to take those billions of dollars and invest them in Alberta to help oil workers get out of that field of work, but the government is still dragging us into a bottomless pit.

Can you formally recommend that we get out of the money pit that TMX represents?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for the question.

On the subject of the financial aspects of this project, since I am the Minister of Environment and Climate Change and not the Minister of Finance, I am not in a position to comment.

However, I can tell you that we are already investing $120 billion in the electrification of transportation, in public transit, and in clean technology. On a per capita basis, that is three times more than the Americans will be investing under the Inflation Reduction Act. In their case, we are talking about $300 billion. There are ten times as many Americans as us, and if they were investing as much per capita, they would not be investing $300 billion, they would be investing $1 trillion or something along that line.

Not a cent has been spent under the Inflation Reduction Act. It will come, but the bill still has to go through a number of steps in the United States Congress. On the other hand, we are making these investments now.

Take the example of public transit, which I know is something that you are concerned about. There are 300 public transit projects underway. This is actual construction: ground is being broken. So we haven't waited. We have started the transition in Canada.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

However, there are other billions that have been invested in initiatives that are completely contrary to the objective of the Paris Accord, to slow climate change by limiting the average global temperature increase to 1.5°C. Last week, we had the report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, which more or less summed this whole situation up.

Apart from the Trans Mountain issue, there are also the Bay du Nord oil project and the offshore oil exploration permits on the Atlantic coast. You have also just given the green light to the liquified natural gas, or LNG, plant in Kitimat, British Columbia. That was done with the agreement of the NDP, which is in government in British Columbia, but once again, these projects have just been greenlit.

In addition, the cost of the Coastal GasLink gas pipeline started out at $6.2 billion, but has now risen to $14 billion. As a taxpayer, as a person who pays taxes, I have had enough of seeing all this money invested in projects that are the opposite of what should be done for the planet, for nature, for the environment and for health.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

There are a lot of points in what you have said, but I think they all revolve around funding for fossil fuels. As you know, at the end of last year, we ended international subsidies for fossil fuels.

For example, at Export Development Canada, or EDC, fossil fuel subsidies fell from $12 billion in recent years to almost nothing this year. On the other hand, investment in clean technology has risen by several billion dollars. This has not happened at the same pace as the reduction in fossil fuel subsidies, but it's close.

So we have reduced public investment in fossil fuels by several billion dollars and increased public investment in clean technologies by several billion dollars. If that is not the transition, I don't know what is.

That said, I am going to correct something that was said about the Kitimat project. The project was assessed under an equivalence agreement between the federal government and British Columbia. It was the province that did the assessment and greenlit the project. Obviously, Ottawa still has a role to play, but the assessment of the project was not done by the federal government, nor is it a project in which the federal government is investing. We must not mix everything up. There are private projects in which people invest private funds. This is not a government project.