Environment Committee on Sept. 21st, 2023

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I agree with Mr. Deltell that we should go and visit that site. I think if we just put that one in specifically, we'd have a better chance. I understand the rationale for going to, obviously, this particular site, Kearl Lake and Fort Chip, but on the Montreal recycling plant, could someone explain where that fits into the studies we're doing or our agenda, or why—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It doesn't. It's a one-off invitation, I believe.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

What is the impetus to do that now, then? I'm just curious.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

A company invited us. It's not the City of Montreal but a private company, I think.

Maybe we don't want to accept an invitation from a private company. It's not part of anything that's on the agenda of this committee.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Okay. Well, I feel that the trip to Kearl Lake and Fort Chip is much more important. You'd suggested earlier using points to get someplace. I don't know if it helps, but if we have points and we're all willing to use our points to get out to Edmonton or wherever it is, and then pay for the rest through our budget, would we have a better chance of going that way? I do think it's very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have to decide by November 10 for any new travel requests.

Let's break this down. I'd like to start by asking the committee if we want to put in a travel request to accept this invitation to a recycling plant in Montreal. I don't mind going myself, and I think, from speaking with Madame Pauzé, she was interested as well. I don't mind just driving down the highway to this recycling plant on a break week to see it myself.

Does the committee think this is important enough to put it into a budget request, or will members, if they're interested in going, go on their own points, that type of thing? That's my question.

Yes, Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

If we're talking about budget requests, I think we have to keep our chance to go to Alberta instead of Montreal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Keep our powder dry—yes.

Okay. That seems to be a consensus.

Mr. van Koeverden, go ahead, and then Madame Pauzé.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also agree with Mr. Deltell on the importance of managing public funds prudently. It's so important.

I also know that all committee members have a recycling centre in their region.

I know for sure that there's a recycling plant in Halton region that I could go to. I'm sure the one in Montreal is special, but I've never visited mine. Maybe with this new opportunity, I could go to my recycling plant. Maybe we could all go to ours, make that a commitment, and come back in February and talk about it.

As for the idea of travelling to Alberta, there's a financial cost, but also, since this is the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, we should take into account the high cost of such a trip in terms of carbon emissions.

We all travel a lot. We all get on planes a lot. We all know that we could do less. I try to drive here occasionally. I try to take the train occasionally. Some members go back to Alberta often.

Tom, it might be easy for you to visit Alberta. I love Alberta. I love visiting.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I live in Alberta. I don't visit.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

I know, but visiting an indigenous community outside of your riding might be simpler for you in terms of the carbon costs as well as the financial costs borne by the public purse. For you they're different than they are for Mr. Deltell and me. All I'm saying is that if there's an opportunity to visit somewhere closer, or we can take a train together, for example, that would be better.

Given the nature of this committee, it's prudent to look at the impact of our carbon emissions on the environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I admit that, if one prevented the other, I would agree with Mr. Deltell.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We won't know that.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

That's right. We will favour one or the other.

That said, the recycling plant is in Montreal, and I'm in Montreal.

I have the invitation in front of me. It says that this plant “is a shining example of what's possible with post-consumer and ocean-bound plastics”, thanks to Canadian innovation. We would have an overview of “techniques being used to put Canada’s sustainability plans into action”. It also says: “During the tour, you will see the process of turning used: electronic devices, drinking water bottles and clothes hangers into recycled plastics”.

As far as I'm concerned, my participation will cost nothing. In any case, this invitation is for the Friday of the break week. I think that's kind of what we were talking about yesterday, Mr. Chair.

So I don't think one necessarily precludes the other, unless you're telling me that if we can't all go to Montreal, no one will.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

What Mr. Deltell raised is that he fears that if we make a request for the entire committee to visit this recycling plant in Montreal, our budget request to travel to Alberta will be less likely to be approved and will be set aside, on the pretext that we have already been given money to visit the recycling plant in Montreal, and that one trip is enough.

So there seems to be a consensus. However, I wonder if the Ethics Commissioner allows committees to accept an invitation to visit a plant and have lunch served to them. It's become so complicated now. We'd have to check that out. For the time being, assuming we can accept this invitation, the consensus seems to be, as I understand it, that we don't want to make a formal request to the Liaison Committee to go to Montreal. We would use our MP budgets to go individually, but at the same time be together. Instead, we would make a formal request to the Liaison Committee to travel to Alberta when the time comes. That seems to be the consensus.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I think that's the consensus we need to reach as well. I do want to point out two things.

Earlier, Mr. Chair, you said that, based on your experience and intuition, the very high bill for all the planned trips wasn't necessarily the reason why our request was turned down. You have much more experience than I do here in the House of Commons and in politics. However, I must admit that, in this case, I would be a bit surprised and disappointed if, by some misfortune, the committee didn't want us to go. We've talked about that a lot here. It's an issue that has resonated with us all. We all remember the testimony of the grand chief and the representatives of the indigenous communities who came here. We all wanted to go and see them to understand what they had gone through. It's all well and good to have conversations here, in the House and on Zoom, but there's nothing like going there to meet people and experience their daily reality, especially when the time comes to travel.

That's my first comment.

Now I would like to go back to what Mr. van Koeverden said. I would also like to congratulate him on his French. I sincerely thank him.

It's to raise the point that, as the environmental committee, we have to be careful when we travel. I do agree 100% with you, and this is sometimes what I think when I see the minister travelling all around the world, but my other point is that I think it's part of the job to go there, especially for this issue. When we talk about the oil spill that happened, it hurt those people directly. It's part of our job to do this.

I'm not a flying guy, by the way. I love airplanes. I love the history of airplanes, but I don't like to fly. More than ever, I would say, like a lot of people, I am very concerned about the environmental footprint when we travel. On the other hand, if I do travel, this will be very efficient, and it's part of my job. I don't think I've travelled.... I think I travelled just before the pandemic situation, maybe on one or two flights but nothing more. It's not because I am cheap, but because I'm careful of that more and more, like everybody.

If there is a trip that we should do, if there is something that we have to do, it's to go there. Keep in mind that, when it's useful or it's important, there's no problem with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

We'll prepare a budget request to go to Alberta to visit the tailings pond and the community of Fort Chipewyan.

Is everybody in agreement?

I'd really like us to pick up where we left off last Tuesday with debate on the motion. I would also remind you that this meeting is not in camera.

That's all I wanted to discuss with you.

Ms. Taylor Roy, do you have a question?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I appreciate what Mr. Deltell said. If there's any way we could perhaps reduce the number of people who need to travel, it might be good.

I agree that it's very important, but I think the first travel request was for too many people.

I think what Mr. van Koeverden said was right in that we should try to minimize our impacts. Perhaps we can reduce the number of people somehow in the request that we make.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We did in the first request.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I think there were still 12 people or something. There were a lot of people, if I remember.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll check.

We have analysts and everything. In terms of committee members, we were not—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Even with the analysts, etc., and all the people...can we just make it the minimum that we need to do this properly?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll do that. Absolutely.

Where were we? I think we were debating Mr. Bachrach's motion, which I think you all have in front of you. Here is where we were. We had agreed to invite the Minister of Energy and Minerals, Brian Jean, and we agreed to strike out the Alberta Energy Regulator.

We were at Mr. Kram, Mr. Deltell, Mr. Leslie, Mr. Falk, who's not here, and Mr. Bachrach, who's not here at the moment.