Evidence of meeting #11 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was energy.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
At the next opportunity, I would invite you to tell my Conservative colleagues what you think about the fact that they almost exclusively invite oil and gas company representatives when we are talking about the climate crisis.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono
Thank you, Mr. Bonin.
Mr. Bexte, the floor is yours for five minutes.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, witnesses, for appearing here today. We really appreciate your insight.
Ms. Dovgal, in light of everything we know and the many things said in testimony today, we see some tension between prescriptive regulations and objective regulations and between modelling and the impact of modelling and how that all evolves. Something I was told by a NASA-involved scientist a while ago was that all models are wrong but some are useful. How do we select which ones are?
Could you comment on how government picking winners and losers and influencing things in a prescriptive way influences choices, like the Liberals maybe developing an affinity for the Keystone pipeline? How can we avoid massive waste in government from picking winners and losers by objective regulations?
Managing Director, Resource Works Society
I really appreciate the way you framed it because both of the questions within that—around the merits of models and what you do with those models—tie into each other.
I alluded to this earlier. Essentially, you want your models and your policy frameworks to reflect system dynamics in the real world as much as possible. The more untethered they are from what's actually happening in the real world, the farther you will fall away from the outcomes you want across the board.
If the outcomes in question are emissions reductions and you're only focused on emissions reductions and are assuming there will be technologies deployed that aren’t actually ready for market deployment at scale, your alternative is decarbonization through deindustrialization. The cost of that is massive.
You are right that picking winners and losers is not a way to do this, because it neglects the way the markets work and how responsible governments can be part of creating solutions that are in line with market economics.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
I have a really short question.
We've talked a lot about the energy transition. I think we as a society are maybe not quite getting the full picture of what the world is going to need in the future. You alluded to it with some comments about energy poverty.
For the world to evolve to where we expect it to be, we are going to need everything. We're not against renewables and more, but we need it all. We need nuclear. We need oil and gas. We need solar. We need wind. We need everything.
Could you speak to that, please?
Managing Director, Resource Works Society
What we are seeing right now is not an energy transition. We are seeing an energy addition, because what the world is doing is adding energy.
Renewables and hydroelectric are part of the solutions, and the numbers are kind of consistent. In British Columbia and Canada, about 17% of our total energy use comes from renewables. This number, I believe, is identical to the one internationally. If you're trying to change the whole system, it's like the composition of, let's say, a swimming pool. If you're just putting little cups of water into it, you're not going to see the results that are being described and are baked into the earlier assumptions.
The costs are not just numbers on a spreadsheet; they are things people feel and experience, and they are experienced differently. At the household level, demand for energy is inelastic, so people get hit harder and harder. At our economy's industrial level, we see a hit that affects productivity, as your colleague mentioned earlier.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
Briefly, can you please supply the committee with any reports or essays you have that describe this? Thank you very much.
I cede the balance of my time to Ms. Anstey.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Thank you.
Mr. Keating, I just wanted a couple of final comments, because this is really important. I always think it's important, when we're having these conversations, to bring them right back to what Canadians and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador feel on the ground.
We have an out-migration issue in our province. A lot of our talented young people end up going away to other provinces in search of good-paying jobs. Can you speak to this with respect to average salaries, for example? If the emissions cap goes forward and this sector is stifled, what will that mean for the next generation of young people?
Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador
Indeed, Newfoundland and Labrador in recent years has had the largest and most significant growth, I think, in household incomes, largely driven on the back of the oil and gas business. That's for the workers we send westward and of course the workers and employees, the 25,000 folks, directly and indirectly in the economy here. In recent times, we've seen that companies are starting to move out, as I mentioned. We had several companies close shop here and move because they were focused on exploration and growth. We even see Exxon Mobil, which rarely has broad layoffs, effect their global downsizing disproportionately in Canada. We weren't immune from it here either.
Liberal
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Ms. Mathur, thank you for being here today and for being accompanied by your family. It takes a lot of courage to be here.
As you've heard, some folks, generally speaking, don't necessarily believe in facts or don't believe in climate models and would rather do nothing on climate. I'm a father of two young daughters. My daughter Anouk is six and my daughter Audrey is 10. They already have climate anxiety. They're talking about forest fires. They're talking about the smoke that was coming through over the summer. I would actually argue that it's probably taxing their future.
Do you have any advice for my daughters about the future?
As an Individual
That's really sad to hear. Climate anxiety is a real issue among youth. When I started my activism, I realized that it existed a lot more often in youth than I realized.
I will try my best to do what I can to protect their future. I think my advice to them is to honour the people who do that for you. I will try my best, and I hope every politician here today will also try their best, to keep that promise to them.
As for advice on climate anxiety, I've always found that my activism, my conversations with politicians and experts and my attending things like this are ways to learn more and to feel as if there are conversations happening and things being done.
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
That's great.
I have a quick follow-up. You're involved in litigation with the Ontario government. Can you speak to whether you feel the Ontario government is doing enough to meet its 2030 targets?
As an Individual
I don't know how much I can say about this litigation, but I'm part of a lawsuit against the Ontario government for their inaction on climate change, and they are not currently meeting their targets. This case is ongoing. I've been in it since I was 12. It's a long process, but I do believe it's worth the fight.
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Ms. Dovgal, Mr. Keating was testifying earlier that he supports an industrial carbon price or a carbon price. Do you support, or does your organization support, an industrial carbon price?
Managing Director, Resource Works Society
That's a great question. I think carbon pricing as a general principle.... This is speaking for myself. We don't have a defined view because we're a platform. We're a think tank. We're an organization that has a lot of different perspectives that we're trying to bring into the public conversation.
Speaking for myself, as someone who's been in this space for about a decade now from when I was a student, we know that carbon pricing can work, but it has to be balanced with trade-offs. If you're only targeting the industrial side of it because politically you've found that consumers are not happy, which is what the Liberal government found in the last election and precipitated some changes before that election, and you're throwing all of the emissions reductions only onto industry, then you're chipping away at the underlying economic base that allows us to have the money in our economy to pay all our bills.
That needs to be balanced carefully. There are lots of tools to employ, but they have to be implemented in a cohesive way. There needs to be a clear alignment between your economic objectives and your climate and environmental policy objectives.
Liberal
Eric St-Pierre Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Keating, I have about a minute left.
The OilCo strategic plan from 2023 to 2025 says, “OilCo, along with government and industry stakeholders and partners, is actively taking steps towards achieving Canada’s and Newfoundland and Labrador's commitment to...net zero”. First, can you provide a copy of that report to this committee?
On page 13, it says, “OilCo is helping to lead the oil and gas industry and the province in achieving net zero...in the offshore sector.” Can you provide some precise examples or solutions that OilCo is using to get to net zero?
I'll also reference a goal to get to achievements in clean energy by December 31, 2025. Can you provide solutions that OilCo has worked on in the last two years?
Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador
Yes, I can. I can supply those documents.
Specifically, and by way of an example—because there are many and we don't have much time—we supported the inventory of CCUS opportunities through our geoscience work. We had independent consultants look at how we can inject not only provincial but also national and international sources of carbon into our reservoirs.
We've undertaken studies to look at the electrification of the offshore, even with hydro power or offshore wind. We've looked at artificial intelligence to see how it can make things more efficient, more cost-effective and, by extension, lower-emitting.
The list goes on in terms of the things we support through our research bodies and through our participation in joint venture studies.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono
Thank you very much.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their testimony today. It's been a real pleasure.
I would also like to thank members for a great session.
I'm happy to hear that Mr. Leslie is young again, or still young.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono
I hope members opposite can consult with Mr. Leslie on what he is doing.
Witnesses, you are all excused.
The committee is scheduled to meet next on November 3. We will be starting a new study on electric vehicles and hearing testimony from senior officials for one hour. The committee will then meet in camera for the second hour.
Have a great weekend and Happy Halloween. Enjoy.
Many thanks to all members.
The meeting is adjourned.