Evidence of meeting #39 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forecasting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Thank you for your question.
I am open to any amendment that can make this bill better and make it work for all Canadians. I think also that this bill will sit within the already existing bodies of government.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Okay.
I know that this is a reiteration of another piece of legislation that died in the last Parliament. I wanted to ask about your timelines. There is a sense of urgency around this issue, yet you're talking about two full years to draw up a plan and then five years to report it. I'm just wondering in terms of the urgency conversation why there are these very long-drawn-out timelines within the legislation.
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
In terms of collecting data, you need more time to collect data and then time to work on the actual national strategy, to give the people who are going to work on it more time. I'm open to reducing the time, if you see fit, or something like that.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Okay. That's putting in place more narrow timelines. That's great.
You also talked about different provinces and municipalities and their different methods of forecasting. One of the things I'm faced with in my riding is a lot of smaller municipalities. My concern, of course, is that they would lack the technical capability to use sophisticated modelling data.
How would you ensure they don't get lost and are able to use these resources the same as other larger areas do?
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Thank you for your question.
Through this bill, they will be able to bring the expertise from elsewhere, but it will also give these municipalities a chance to speak to their reality. Somebody that's so far away cannot speak to the reality of the municipalities you're talking about. Having everybody able to put their realities on paper and able to say what the reality of the—
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
That's just to tell their story. I'm talking more about tapping into the modelling data, though.
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
For the modelling data, it would be a recollecting, I would say, of a lot of the data we have and then extrapolating. For your question, if it's possible, Dr. Pomeroy could answer, since he's in modelling.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
We can have a short answer and then we'll move on.
Go ahead, Mr. Pomeroy.
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Yes, I would be happy to.
For the modelling data, what has been developed in Canada is open source and open data. The transparency is crucially important, but it requires provincial interpretation, because the provincial governments manage our water resources. That means they manage the reservoirs, the dams, the dikes and the flood control structures in cities and others.
They also know their populations. In the Prairies, where I'm from, it's about sloughs spilling over and breaking grid roads. Things like this are of great concern in the very flat areas. In the high mountains, it's about how quickly water is rushing down the hill slope and carrying debris. In the lake country of the boreal forest throughout Canada, it's about the management of those lakes and reservoirs, which are often interprovincial and highly complex. That data always needs the provincial interpretation to the communities, and they have those established frameworks there.
What this is about is empowering the provincial forecasters with federal supercomputer power and federal models. Some of them are still using spreadsheets for doing some of this, with very low budgets, but this is to help them out and to bring up the standard across the country, so that we have a fit-for-purpose system across the country, which we currently do not have.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you very much, Dr. Pomeroy.
We need to move on to our next line of questioning. We'll go to Mr. Grant for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Wade Grant Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Watchorn.
Mademoiselle Auguste, it's very good to see you. I know how passionate you are about this bill. I know the first thing you texted me afterwards was that you wanted to get this bill through as fast as possible, and I really raise my hands in thanks for your having so much passion.
I would like to go back to Mr. Pomeroy, if I may, and talk about the flooding. It doesn't respect borders. The Ottawa River, for example, runs between Ontario and Quebec. With the absence of a coordinated national forecasting framework, what does that mean in practice for communities that sit within shared or interprovincial boundaries?
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
This would mean that with federal quarterbacking of how we approach this, we bring the best capabilities of two, three or four provinces, together with that federal backing, to come up with coherent forecasts and predictions.
Also, I should reiterate that most of our waters, where most of Canada's population lives, are shared with the United States. This also means relations with the United States, which are far better done for Canada-U.S. relations. It is entirely a federal concern in the United States; it is not a state concern. This is something where the federal government can bring more weight to that negotiating table with the Americans.
Liberal
Wade Grant Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
That's a good point. I'm from British Columbia, where large flooding along the Sumas Prairie spreads across to Washington state, so I really respect that answer.
You also spoke about engagement and coordination with indigenous communities. I was at a very remote indigenous community very recently. What can you tell us about indigenous knowledge and how that can help strengthen a national approach to flood and drought forecasting?
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Our observations of water heights and velocities go back to about 1910, but first nations have memories about floods that go back centuries. It's an extremely valuable body of information. They've also learned how to understand aspects of weather through their traditions that give them some predictive powers, particularly amongst the elders in their communities. Bringing this information in does certainly help with the forecast for their communities, but also I think it could help with forecasts for other communities so that we really have every body of knowledge brought forward for this problem.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Thank you, Mr. Grant.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Auguste, for introducing the bill today. I think that it's a very important bill. This bill is so important that, in the previous Parliament, all the political parties supported it. This must be said, because everyone sees the importance of the bill as it stands.
Mr. Pomeroy, when I was the mayor of a small municipality, we had problems with bridges and culverts because of climate change. I would like to know how climate change will be integrated into the new calculations. I know that the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec uses new tables—called “Intensity‑Duration‑Frequency”, or IDF—to design culverts.
How will the modelling be done to enable municipalities to really benefit from this bill?
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
The same models that will be used for flood prediction can also be used for flood-plain prediction. The way to do that is to couple these to the climate change models of Environment Canada and then run future weather scenarios so that we see what the floods will be in 2050, 2080 and 2100 and build our infrastructure for the future, not for the past that our records present.
This is something that's essential for us to do, and the environment auditor brought it up as well that it is important for Canada. This bill actually addresses that through building that national prediction capacity.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
Thank you.
We all know that municipal costs rise every time a climate‑related event occurs.
Ms. Auguste, will Bill C‑241 include provisions for cost predictions and modelling, which would help municipalities save money by making the adaptations proposed in the bill?
Mr. Pomeroy, you can also answer the question.
Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Here's just a quick ratio. The recent economic study showed the value of water data. The economic return is 12:1, so 12 times the benefit of the cost of the data collection. One can assume a similar ratio for the information that would come from this system.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you, Mr. Watchhorn.
Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'll summarize the conversation.
Ms. Auguste, we seem to be in a political communication film right now. I haven't heard you say what new things your bill would bring to the table that couldn't be done today by the Meteorological Service of Canada. What needs does it meet?
We aren't against the principle. On the contrary, we're saying that the government isn't doing enough, that it isn't taking the climate crisis seriously, that it's fuelling this crisis with pipelines and that it has an insufficient adaptation plan with a reduced budget. However, we don't want new structures for the sake of new structures. The Prime Minister didn't pass a bill to build pipelines with Alberta, nor to develop an auto strategy that weakens the previous climate objectives. That's the challenge.
Our time here is nonetheless valuable. I don't see why you need a bill. What you need is to obtain money and to move forward with your concern.
I would like you to tell me exactly why this bill exists. If the issue isn't resources, it's a lack of money. We know this, and you should be allocating more. Your bill doesn't bring in any money. Since it's a private member's bill, it can't.
What are the current legal and administrative barriers preventing the government from improving the meteorological services provided in Canada? What are the concrete factors?
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Thank you for the question.
I would like to tell you that this is a private member's bill. As a member of Parliament who isn't on the Privy Council, I must use this type of legislation specifically to be able to do this. I can't speak for the government. Again, I'm not on the Privy Council—
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
I'm trying to tell you that this is my approach. I'm using the current tools available to me to propose a strategy that—