Evidence of meeting #48 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was building.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Purcell  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, The Atmospheric Fund
Rand  Senior Advisor, The ReCover Initiative
Rowe  The Eastern Peninsulas, CPC
Haley  Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada
Dicaire  Senior Manager, Conservation and Sustainability, Ottawa Community Housing
Lockhart  Director, Buildings, Pembina Institute

5:10 p.m.

Director, Buildings, Pembina Institute

Kevin Lockhart

Thank you.

I'll jump right into it because I've heard my colleagues speak to the benefits of retrofits, and Mr. Dicaire spoke to the durability of markets.

We know that retrofitting our homes is important and that there are high returns on investments, resulting in both lower energy costs and utility savings today. Also, in terms of decades to come, we need to prepare our homes, prepare our households, for increasingly frequent extreme weather.

The point I want to make is that these benefits won't reach households at scale through short-term incentives or through isolated projects. To meaningfully increase the rate of retrofit activity, we need that durable approach that builds a reliable and, preferably, made-in-Canada retrofit industry that attracts both public and private investment.

Retrofit measures that prioritize efficient use of energy and materials can, as well as helping with climate resilience, help protect people from extreme temperatures—things like wildfire, smoke and other hazards. They also, as we've heard, help reduce energy waste and emissions. At the Pembina Institute, we've seen this through our own retrofit of six multi-unit residential buildings, each housing vulnerable tenants, to which we've been able to add cooling, thus enhancing the resilience of those buildings. In doing so, we've really seen this as a pilot project, in which we are encountering challenges, many of which you've heard today, but we are seeing breakthroughs with each iteration.

On the residential side, retrofits are important because they do protect insurability. This is a growing concern across Canada as insurance premiums are rapidly increasing, and we're now seeing areas that are at risk of uninsurability due to the losses from extreme weather. Those same retrofits are also supporting economic development and affordability.

On the affordability side, we've heard about the reductions in energy costs, lower energy and operating costs for households. Again, we've seen this through our reframed buildings, where households have cut energy costs by more than 50%. We've also seen these same retrofits use measures that help to harden the building against extreme weather events: This could be something like hail-resistant roofing. These are important measures, this hardening of the building and climate resilience retrofits, because they can help protect Canadians and save Canadians the three dollars to four dollars of uninsured costs, paid directly or through their taxes, that are associated with each dollar of insured losses.

These retrofits also help build the economy. Ten jobs are created for every $1 million invested, which surpasses job creation in conventional sectors like oil and gas, forestry and trucking. However, as I've heard my colleagues express today, there are connected barriers to scaling retrofits that continue to remain. Households may lack affordable financing, trusted advice or a qualified contractor. Renters have little control over building upgrades and may not receive the benefits of those retrofits if those costs or disruptions are passed on to them. Apartment owners may struggle to coordinate upgrades or secure approvals. Governments, utilities and municipalities all may offer programs that are fragmented, difficult to navigate or short-lived.

How do we achieve a long-term and durable strategy for retrofits that combines public policy and market-led investments? Today, this may include maintaining public funding supports. We've heard that the much-needed advancements, through the deep retrofit accelerator initiative and the greener neighbourhoods pilot program, have worked towards embedding essential delivery models and workforce capacity in the market. Again, we've seen this in our reframed cohort of buildings, in which the capacity for things like panelization, which Mr. Dicaire spoke to, for procurement of high-performance retrofits has been improved over the course of that project.

A new approach would also look at targeted delivery. This is really the continuation of things like the greener homes affordability program, as well as the CMHC affordable housing fund. Each of these help to improve affordability and living conditions for the the nearly two million Canadian households that experience energy poverty today.

Going forward, the federal government can also help create this durable retrofit market by shifting from an incentive dependence environment towards market enabling policy, really de-risking private capital rather than subsidizing it.

It's really using the financial levers that we've heard about: loan guarantees, clean building tax credits, project aggregation and more. All this helps finance and insurance better recognize asset value, durability and reduce climate risk, and make those benefits visible in standardized financial and climate risk evaluations. It will then help insurers and finance utility markets all recognize and reflect risk-reducing retrofits in pricing and compensation.

For government's part, it can reinforce these through procurement, stringent building codes and long-term program signals, all of which help create demand and certainty that help bolster supply chains and also give workforce an anchor to build their career around.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you, Dr. Lockhart.

We will continue with questions.

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for six minutes.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us.

Mr. Haley, can you explain the difference between a financial strategy that simply subsidizes banks and one that would put in place, for example, better renovation platforms? It is not that easy to understand.

Can you explain that, please?

5:20 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

We could have a strategy where the federal government says that the banks already provide some products to retrofit your home, usually through some sort of mortgage-backed instrument, so let's just reduce their interest rates by buying them down. I think if you did that, you'd buy down the interest rate for a couple of years. Then, once that went away, I think the banks would just continue to essentially provide the same product.

I think if you really wanted to change the game, you would create a platform that would do all the things the banks don't want to do but would find valuable, a platform that could find the consumers when they need the service, a platform that would have a contractor network and all the due diligence and performance accountability on the contractors.

If you could do that, you're essentially taking away all these transaction costs that would be very valuable to the bank. I think that would be a longer-term, more investable product. Ideally, a financier wouldn't just be saying, “I want to provide you, as an individual, with a loan, and I'm going to take away your house if you don't pay the loan.” They would actually provide finance to a business, and for that business, the cash flows would be from the energy savings or from some of the other services in terms of comfort and energy performance.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Thank you.

Let's talk about program design. Canada is a big country that includes the Quebec nation. Hydro-Québec, for example, can be quite innovative when it comes to deployment.

How do you see programs adapting to regional or national needs, in the case of Quebec?

5:20 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

Previously, we had some programs that were not very regionally flexible. For example, there was a program to replace oil with heat pumps. That's great, but in Quebec, you could replace electric baseboards with a heat pump and it would save a lot of people money. That is very important for saving electricity within Quebec right now.

That flexibility region by region is really important because there are different climate zones. That's one of the reasons the Canada greener homes affordability program, which is the low-income program, is actually being administered by Hydro-Québec within Quebec. That does provide that regional flexibility, that provincial flexibility. That's also why I think a financing program that would support these platforms makes a lot more sense. You could have a platform that's dedicated to serving, say, the Quebec market.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

We hear a lot about programs and that there's not enough funding, that there should be more. Shouldn't there also be regulations in place? The ratings for buildings could be made mandatory, for example. Some states, like New York, have banned natural gas in new homes. The Communauté métropolitaine de Montréal has done the same.

Isn't that regulatory aspect essential? Without that, we can't be sure the objectives will be met. What could be proposed?

5:20 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

If we want to reach net zero, those types of regulations are definitely important. Quebec and Montreal have actually been leading, thinking through some of those policies on mandatory performance standards for large buildings. I think there's a federal role in enabling those types of policies at the regional level.

One key tool that the federal government has within its jurisdiction is the Energy Efficiency Act, which regulates appliances and equipment. One thing which I think makes a lot of sense is that it doesn't make any sense to have an air conditioner in this country that only does air conditioning. An air conditioner could also be a heat pump. You could, for instance, use the Energy Efficiency Act to say that every air conditioner sold in most of the country could also operate as a heat pump. That's just a better product. It's only a couple of hundred dollars in terms of technological cost to make that change. That is one type of regulation that I think could be done immediately.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Do you think there has been a decline in the number of options on the table for greening buildings since the election of the so-called new Liberal government, the Carney government?

5:25 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

At the beginning of the new government's mandate, they cancelled the greener homes loan program, and I think that was a good indicator of the disruption.... I critiqued the greener homes loan program here. I think that loan program could really be improved, but we don't improve anything by disrupting these programs in this kind of boom-and-bust dynamic.

If the greener homes loan program was going to be brought right back, I think the natural question from, say, contractors would be, “When is it going to go away again?” We need to find something that is more permanent and gets beyond this boom and bust that both contractors and consumers can rely on.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you very much, Mr. Bonin

We will now turn to Mr. Leslie for five minutes.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Haley, I'd like to pick up on that topic.

Going back to your opening remarks, as well as what you just talked about, Mr. Bonin, two things intrigued me. One is the emergency nature. If somebody in my life has a broken furnace and it's October, not January 20, they have time to figure it out. In certain situations, though, you're going to want to act quickly. I really like the idea of a pre-approved contractor.

My understanding is that the Manitoba government's version of this federal program that's being delivered to them has pre-approved contractors for geothermal, depending on the retrofit, or a system like that. I would like to clarify if that is what you're talking about, because I think there's a way to get government more or less out of this.

5:25 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

How do you define eligibility for that? If you're going to backstop the pre-approved contractors, you mentioned that it would be middle- and high-income people for that type of scenario versus lower-income people, who would have a different tool available.

Would you do it based on income or reduction in electricity usage? I think those are important things to try to categorize beforehand. How would you go about that?

5:25 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

That's a good question.

I don't think it makes sense if someone who has a low income wants to take on financing. If they qualify for the financing, though, we can't stop them from doing that, and you wouldn't want to do that. I think it makes sense to have the offer in the market to say that because their income qualified, we have a no-cost option for them, or we could pay for a significant portion of this through another program.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Going back to the Harper government's version of this program, recognizing boom and bust, it has been up and down, and challenges exist there, there was a loan associated with it. You could get a loan directly from the federal government at zero or low interest as part of the application to get whatever type of retrofit. It was less on an emergency basis, but more on a planned basis.

Do you think that this would be an ability to remove one of these steps? We've heard during the study that we're giving millions of dollars to organizations to help build capacity and things like that.

How do we stop paying third parties to be involved in this when we can be directing more money towards actual retrofits for individual homeowners, whatever their income is?

5:25 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

Essentially, you're trying to create the platform that does a lot of the work that we're now putting on the shoulders of customers. There are various strategies to do this. There is an administrative aspect to this. There are fintech companies in Canada right now. A big one is FinanceIt. It is working with contractors right now. You can get financing on the spot for all types of upgrades, including energy efficiency upgrades. However, the interest rate is 12% in some cases.

There's an opportunity to buy down that interest rate, but I think there's also an opportunity for the federal government to say that it wants to ensure there's customer protection and that the right methods are being put.... Ideally, if you have a contractor that's saying they're only going to get paid if you actually save energy, I think that's an ideal business model.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

I love that, because that was my next question.

You used the word “goal” earlier, saying there's a lack of a clear goal. In your assessment, what should be the single most important measure for success of a federal retrofit program? Is it lower household bills, lower energy use and lower emissions, or is it the overall number of projects or homes completed?

5:25 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

That's a good question.

I would think about it in two different scales. I would think about it from the household scale. It's whatever the household wants. It's—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

We're the ones doling out taxpayer money, so I would be mindful of that. What is the best success from the taxpayer's perspective?

5:30 p.m.

Senior Director of Policy Strategy, Efficiency Canada

Brendan Haley

I think from the taxpayer perspective, it would be whether we are retrofitting in a way that is reducing societal costs. There's a whole bunch of money to be saved by reducing demand on the electricity system. There's a whole bunch of money to be saved in terms of health costs, especially on the low-income side. People have fewer sick days and fewer doctor visits, and they are more productive at school and work because of the health benefits. There are fewer issues with mould in the house. Those would be the indicators I would look towards.

My point about the consumer is that if somebody is saying that they really need air conditioning, and it's the thing they need to do, the consumer is right about that, and we need to give them the most efficient option.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Madam Chair, in my final seconds—

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Mr. Leslie, I'm sorry.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Are you sure?

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Yes, it was five minutes.

We'll now go to Mr. St-Pierre.

You have the floor for five minutes.