Evidence of meeting #14 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bernard Shapiro  Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Robert Benson  Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé  Director, Corporate Affairs, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'd like to call the meeting to order, please.

You'll notice from the agenda that we have with us the Office of the Ethics Commissioner, and I'll introduce the specific people who are here in a moment.

I'm just reminding committee members that we also have on the agenda, depending on whether we finish with the Ethics Commissioner by 5:30, continued consideration of our draft report on another subject, and Mr. Martin has just spoken to me and has asked for some time—brief, he advises—with respect to the motion he had brought forward and had indicated at the last meeting that he wouldn't deal with at the last meeting. He has asked for about five minutes today. So we have a fairly busy agenda. That's why I'd like to get started.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we're dealing with the main estimates of 2006-2007, specifically vote 15, Office of the Ethics Commissioner, referred to the committee on Tuesday, April 25, 2006.

We have with us the Ethics Commissioner, Mr. Bernard Shapiro. Welcome, sir. I'll let you introduce your staff. I understand that you have an opening statement, and I invite you to make it.

3:35 p.m.

Bernard Shapiro Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

First, thank you for having invited me to meet with the committee. Before I proceed, I wish to introduce my officials who are with me today: the Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Robert Benson; the Director, Strategy and Policy, Mr. Stephen Tsang; the Director, Corporate Affairs, Ms. Lyne Robinson-Dalpé; and the Director, Communications and Parliamentary Relations, Ms. Micheline Rondeau-Parent.

My appearance today is in relation to my office's 2006-2007 main estimates. This is the third year of our activities, and it represents, in some sense, the anchor year in terms of our operations and budgetary requirements. That is, relative to at least the current arrangements, we've arrived at what I believe is the appropriate stabilizing level. The total amount requested for 2006-2007 is $5.051 million. By comparison, for last year, our first full financial year, we sought and received $4.675 million.

Our current year's request represents an 8% increase over last year. This relates solely to an increase in the cost of the provision of services from our parliamentary partners, namely, an increase of $220,000 in the memorandum of understanding with the House of Commons with respect to the provision of information technology services, and an increase of $250,000 in the memorandum of understanding with the Library of Parliament with respect to the provision of financial, procurement, administrative, and library services.

It is important to note that our main estimates requirements assume that the mandate and functions of the office remain the same. Although my office has taken some preliminary measures in preparation for the possible coming into force of Bill C-2, the proposed Federal Accountability Act, our estimates for 2006-2007 do not take into account any budgetary requirements that may result from its enactment. Should the bill be enacted during this current financial year, supplementary estimates will be sought, if needed.

I would now like to provide you with a brief contextual perspective of our budgetary requirements. As members are aware, my office is relatively new, as it was created on May 17, 2004. Our first year, 2004-2005, was a transition year. We sought and obtained $3.7 million for 10.5 months of activity. This enabled us to bridge our operations towards the creation of a new office as a unique and separate entity under the Parliament of Canada Act, outside the purview of the executive branch of government.

Our second year, 2005-2006, was a development year. This was our first full year of activity and our first full-year request as a new parliamentary entity. We sought and received, as I said earlier, a little more than $4.5 million. The increase from the previous year was attributable to our operational needs for a full year, particularly in the area of salaries and benefits related to a significant increase in the number of personnel, the provision of legal and investigative services, and costs for new services previously rendered and absorbed by other government entities.

This year, 2006-2007, is a year of stability and status quo, as already explained earlier. As detailed above, it is a flat budget, since it does not require any additional operating funds.

On a general matter related to our budget, I would like to discuss another, more general consideration. As some members may be aware, since the fall of 2005, i.e. the launching of our new Web site, in a spirit of transparency, we have posted all our expenditures. These present the Office's entire budget's expenditures, not only those related to travel or hospitality, as is the case for all government organizations. That practice is ongoing as anyone can drill down a budget, in relation to each line object and see where each dollar has been spent. In order to keep them relevant, these are updated monthly.

You may recall that during my appearance before your committee on September 20, some members requested information with respect to past estimates. In response, I sent a letter to the chair, dated October 3, in which I provided, in appendix, further information and clarification on the specific issues raised. I assume that members have been provided with copies of this correspondence.

Finally, the Parliament of Canada Act provides my office with a distinct financial mechanism through which the Speaker of the House of Commons considers the office's requirements and transmits them to the president of the Treasury Board. Last year this committee tabled its report entitled “A New Process for Funding Officers of Parliament”, which listed my office as a participant in the recommendation that established a budgetary panel for a two-year pilot project.

The pilot project process prescribed that officers would “provide their annual budget submission directly to the panel along with an accompanying submission by the Treasury Board Secretariat. As an officer of Parliament under the Parliament of Canada Act, I wrote to Speaker Milliken, as chair of the panel, to clarify this process. On November 23, 2005, he responded, confirming that, “I am in agreement that, in the current context, there is no role for the Treasury Board in the review of your budget requirements”.

Although my office has not been called before the panel, should the Speaker of the House of Commons wish to refer my budget submission to a review panel, I'd be pleased to participate, noting that my office does not operate within exactly the same context and parameters as do the agents of Parliament.

I thank you for your attention. My officials and I would be pleased to answer your questions and address any issues related to our 2006-2007 Estimates or any other related matter, including further clarification related to my October 3 letter.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

We'll go to questions. The first round, as usual, will be seven minutes, and the second round will be five minutes. Right now I have Mr. Peterson listed, and then we'll go the Bloc, the NDP, and the Conservatives.

Mr. Peterson, go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you all for being with us.

You had mentioned in an earlier appearance that you were having trouble recruiting people because they don't get all the benefits of being civil servants. What is the rationale for not treating your people as civil servants, sir?

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

I don't recall exactly what I said, but we are not currently having trouble recruiting people, just so you know.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Good.

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

I think the issue I was trying to raise was that there is--and this would be something, incidentally, dealt with by Bill C-2, at least in its current form--a certain difficulty in the sense that, normally speaking, the people in my office would not have access to job opportunities in other parts of the civil service because they're part of the parliamentary system. They would have access, for example, to Library of Parliament, House of Commons, or Senate positions. That was the issue I think I was referring to. But at the moment, it is not a problem for us.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

It seems to me that your employees should have the same types of opportunities that other civil servants have to promote themselves in jobs in Ottawa.

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

I think that is something that's being developed, actually. Bill C-2 takes that into account. If it should pass in its current form, or roughly its current form, that would be an issue behind us.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Okay, good.

Do you use outside law firms often in your investigations?

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

It's hard to say “often”, because we haven't had many investigations. The answer would be sometimes, but not frequently.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Do you find it fairly expensive?

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

I don't recall, but I imagine they are fairly expensive to use. The difficulty that I've had in trying to think that through is that since I never know how many investigations there are going to be in any one, two, or three years, it's hard to staff up and do it all internally. So we try to deal with it internally to the extent we can. When we need outside help, we get it.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

So you can actually have economies by not being overstaffed and having surges covered by outsiders.

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

That's correct. Over time one might find a pattern emerging and see another way to deal with it. At the moment we certainly wouldn't be able to.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Let me ask a couple of questions flowing from that. Perhaps another way of getting at the answer would be how many investigations have you done since your office opened, and in how many of them did you hire outside counsel?

3:40 p.m.

Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Bernard Shapiro

I don't have the answer at the moment. Bob, would you know?

3:40 p.m.

Robert Benson Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

In our office we have jurisdiction under two codes. So my response could be broken down into investigations under either the public office holder code or the member of Parliament code.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Why don't you break it down that way?

3:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Robert Benson

Do you want it by year?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Just in total.

3:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Robert Benson

In total, under the public office holder code, there's been only one—Minister Sgro. Under the member of Parliament code, there have been seven investigations: four in our 2005-06 year, three in the current year.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Of those, how many involved outside legal counsel? I believe the Sgro report did.

3:40 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner

Robert Benson

Yes, that was one—her first one. There was a greater amount of money spent there, because we retained counsel to undertake the interviews for us. In the subsequent ones, we used inside personnel to conduct the interviews. However, as we proceeded with some of these inquiries, we found we needed to obtain legal opinions on the application of certain provisions relating to parliamentary privilege in the Parliament of Canada Act. So expenses arose there. We indicated in our 2005-06 report—not the current one that's before you—that we were spending approximately $220,000 for this legal advice. It was broken down into matters of litigation, as they related to the provision of legal advice in the conducted inquiries.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'm not quite clear. If I understood you correctly, on the first breakdown, which was one case, the Sgro case, there was an investigation and there was outside counsel retained.