Evidence of meeting #29 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pipeda.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
Those were the medical records that were spread around the streets.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON
Would you consider that the recourse in those breaches that were followed through was somehow not sufficient? What I'm driving at is that PIPEDA already includes prohibitions against this kind of release of personal information. It is inherent in the act now that organizations that have personal information are required to protect it, and how they go about protecting it—whether they destroy it when they're finished with it, and so on and so forth—is their responsibility, but you're suggesting we have to lead them by the hand and tell them what they actually have to do with it. Why do you think the current responsibilities of these organizations are not sufficient?
9:50 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
I would say that while there is direction provided already, as you acknowledged, we are asking, just as you've said, for a clearer direction saying specifically that it must be destroyed when it's discarded and describing what that destruction is, along with the other recommendations. The reason is that the current level of direction falls short of what has been found to be necessary throughout much of the world to actually get action to be taken. As we've pointed out, in these high-profile cases—they were rather high-profile and made headlines—the reality is that this is happening very much as standard operating procedure, unfortunately, and it's so commonplace that it's not reported. As a result, the current statute, as it is written, is largely disregarded.
9:50 a.m.
Chair, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
We feel the number of breaches and the degree of the breaches would be limited and would decrease under better legislation.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
Thank you, Mr. Stanton.
That concludes the first round. We're now into five-minute rounds.
We'll begin with Mr. Dhaliwal.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I also wish to thank the panel for coming.
As Ms. Fineberg mentioned, in your business there was not a single breach in protecting privacy and private information. On the other hand, some people are saying that the search could be narrowed down to a patient or a doctor. What is your view about that particular case, when it comes to work product and personal information?
9:50 a.m.
Corporate Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer, Canada and Latin America, IMS Health Canada
Certainly on the personal information side, IMS has been a very strong supporter of patient privacy rights. When there was a suggestion that the information we have might be identifiable in some way, I would say to people that clearly it is illegal across the country for IMS to collect, use, or disclose any identifiable patient information without that individual's consent. We have lots of measures in place to ensure that we do not do that.
There was a previous witness, I believe it was Dr. Rosenberg, who suggested that based on some work that was done a number of years ago in the U.S., perhaps people could be identified through publicly available information. The situation down there is very different. They don't have the privacy laws that we do, the federal Privacy Act and provincial laws that prohibit the availability of databases, such as our voters lists, motor vehicles licensing databases, vital statistics, and so on. As a matter of fact, a researcher up here in Ottawa recently tried to replicate those U.S. studies and found that it was not possible to do so. If the committee likes, I can provide that reference afterwards.
As I mentioned, we've never had a breach of patient privacy. With respect to physician information, as a matter of fact, we have had a code of practice in place for a number of years that sets out explicitly how we deal with all this information. We are transparent; it is posted on our website. It has been there for a number of years, and it's based on the Canadian Standards Association's principles, which is the code that is a schedule to PIPEDA.
Also we're independently audited each year by QMI, which is an audit branch of CSA. Our most recent certification is in your packages.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
On the other issue, we keep hearing that B.C. and Quebec have their own legislation that is much better than PIPEDA. What is your view?
9:55 a.m.
Corporate Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer, Canada and Latin America, IMS Health Canada
As a matter of fact, on the provincial level, it's B.C., Alberta, and Quebec that have substantially similar legislation. I believe that what the committee has heard to date is that B.C. and Alberta represent what the commissioner called the second generation of privacy laws, and that perhaps we should take some direction, based on the learnings over time and how those provinces have accommodated them.
I also believe that when the commissioner was here, Vice-Chair Tilson specifically asked her if there were particular things in the Quebec legislation that she might suggest should be incorporated into or looked at for PIPEDA. I recall that her answer was that given the timing, things had sort of moved on, and it was the second generation laws in B.C. and Alberta that the committee should perhaps look to for direction.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Because you're collecting information from the physicians, what is their position on what we call border pharmaceuticals, when it comes to the colleges of pharmacists or doctors?
9:55 a.m.
Corporate Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer, Canada and Latin America, IMS Health Canada
The National Association of Pharmacy Regulatory Authorities does have a policy position, and they allow the information to be collected.
With respect to B.C., that was raised before, and its bylaw is quite old. It came into effect in 1997 and was effectively forced upon the college by the B.C. Ministry of Health against its wishes. The college board has subsequently voted to amend that bylaw, but the B.C. government has yet to approve the amendment.
February 8th, 2007 / 9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My questions are mostly for our friends from the National Association for Information Destruction. It was interesting for me, as in another lifetime I was in the information management on paper—I worked for TAB Canada. I don't know if you know TAB. We had a section that dealt with policies, and so on, on records management. I wasn't one of them, but I was familiar with it.
Did PIPEDA make a difference in terms of legislation? I know there was legislation, or at least guidelines, for a record of management information in terms of how long you hold onto something, when it should be destroyed, and so on.
Could you clarify for me two things right up front? Is your company in storage and in destruction? Did PIPEDA make a change to those other guidelines—I don't know if it was guidelines or legislation—on how long you keep records and so on?
9:55 a.m.
Chair, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
To answer your first question, there are various sizes of companies. For example, my company is in the records information management business, which is magnetic media and hard copy storage business and shredding. But the majority of our members are independent, shred-only, destruction-only companies.
Do you want to answer number two, Bob?
10 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
Number two, did PIPEDA make a difference in the behaviour of organizations with regard to disposal? Is that it?
10 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
That's part of the question. The other part of that question was, are there not already laws in other areas about—? We used to advise people that, if the information was to be kept for five years, after five years get rid of the damned stuff so you don't have it sitting around—or if it was seven, or nine, whatever the timeframe was. Has that changed?
10 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
Obviously there are still legal retention requirements. Of course you want to keep it around for its useful life as well, if there's some access to it. Certainly it is prudent records management policy, and continues to be prudent, to purge records that are no longer needed, that have reached the end of their retention period, and to do that on a regular basis to avoid the appearance of suspicious destruction. If it happens there's a lawsuit a week later, and you did it offhand, it's going to be adversely interpreted. There are all of those things. But there is no requirement to get rid of them at that period of time, and there never has been. With regard to their disposal, there's very little direction at this point other than just--
10 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
So it's guidelines, basically. Okay.
It has been referenced that Alberta and British Columbia have privacy pieces. Do they have destruction requirements in their laws?
10 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
Alberta's Personal Information Protection Act is a bit clearer than PIPEDA is, but not much. Across the board, even going back to 1990 with the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, when it was passed at that time, it had a clearer definition or direction as far as what destruction is and that personal information shall be destroyed when it is discarded, but no definitions of what destruction is, and destruction could be interpreted as many things.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Has your organization taken the time—I know your partners at the table here today have taken stuff from another piece of legislation in British Columbia and want to put work product stuff in the federal one. Do you have the actual wording of what you would like to see?
10 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
We have supplied such wording in both the United States and in the European Union when we were asked for it. We have not prepared that for Canada at this point, but it would be very easy to do.
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative David Tilson
Excuse me, that would be useful if you sent it to the clerk.
10 a.m.
Executive Director, National Association for Information Destruction - Canada
Consider it done.