Evidence of meeting #13 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
I will wrap up. If you hired your lawyer yourself and your discussions with him are truly confidential—I am a lawyer myself—that means that you, as an individual, are paying Mr. Lecours's bill. But, if Mr. Lecours is here as a government-paid lawyer, you can no longer make that argument, Mr. Togneri.
Is the government paying him to protect its interests, or are you paying him to protect yours?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
That's it. I'm sorry.
Please respond. We're going to go on to Mr. Rickford after your answer.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for your question.
That question has nothing to do with the reason I was summoned here today. If you want to form a committee to discuss legal fees, you can go ahead and do so.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses and your legal counsel for coming today.
I have some questions for you, Mr. Togneri, but I do have a bit of a preamble that I hope will not be interfered with. This is a key theme that has occurred today.
I'm a little disappointed, if I could speak frankly, because I had a thoughtful conversation with the chair yesterday. And since we're introducing conversations, it seems relevant to say that I took away a great appreciation of some of the finer points of participating in committee with him, only to come here today to find out, with some great disappointment, that we seem to be in the business of trampling on more than a century of parliamentary custom and in fact laws--custom is related.
We've seen an introduction of a conflict of laws, and it has been brought in a rather curious way: with a telephone call. We don't know whether the chair requested this conversation or whether the commissioner requested it. We also don't know whether the commissioner was aware that this conversation might in fact pose serious, substantive concerns, at least from my perspective. In that regard, I will put it out there that I am a lawyer and have thought through all different kinds of scenarios with respect to this fact pattern and whether the commissioner's response to an order by her office would seriously compromise that document and your ability to give thoughtful and effective testimony today to guide this committee in its work.
I'm confused, because I thought the chair was in a position to provide guidance in a non-partisan kind of way, and I, in my own observation, saw enthusiastic partisanship that I think has really put this investigation of the office of this particular commissioner in serious jeopardy.
That said, I have no doubt that you have found yourself in a situation today where you may indeed feel uncomfortable having given any testimony dealing with an ongoing investigation. A simple yes or no: do you feel that way?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
Yes, absolutely.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
That's unfortunate.
So what I'm hearing you say, then, in that answer is that you indeed think it's inappropriate to have appeared at this committee when you're in fact...relevant information is involved in an investigation. Is that true?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for that question.
Yes, indeed, that is true. On March 23, 2010, I testified under oath at the offices of the Information Commissioner. I was given a confidentiality order and I've had to break it here.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Similarly, unfortunate. So I might respectfully submit, then, that we have gone down an improper road and we may be looking at certainly a substantive cause, if you will, for interference in that investigation, and I'd like to put that on the record.
But I want to focus, in my last--
Am I running out of time?
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Okay. I have some simple questions, then.
I want to just review this again. Do you believe it is important to be open and transparent in the work that you do?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
And have you at all times and to the best of your ability acted in an open and transparent way?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Mr. Siksay, please.
I do need the last two minutes to instruct the committee on what happens next, so I'll have to cut you off, but I will make it up at an appropriate time.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Togneri, I just wanted to come back to a question that was recently asked of you. Can you tell us who had the delegated authority in Minister Paradis' office for ATI requests?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
No one has delegated authority.
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
So there was no one in Minister Paradis' office who had delegated authority in the department to deal with access to information requests, and you don't know the name of any person who had official delegated authority under the Access to Information Act.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
You're asking who in the department? I don't know.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
So even though you were the person who the minister had put in charge of access to information requests, on his political staff, you have no idea who the people in the department were who had delegated authority to deal with access to information in the minister's office?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
I don't know. I don't know if it's one person or more than one person. I don't know who has delegated authority.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay. I appreciate your answer. I'm troubled by your answer, but I appreciate it.
Mr. Togneri, when you received notification of an access to information request, that the release was pending--or impending--did you often negotiate back with officials in the department about what would be released or when it would be released? Did you undertake those kinds of consultations and negotiations?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Once again, I'm not sure that I really understand your question, but I'll try to answer it. I have no delegated authority to make any of those kinds of...any kinds of decisions as to.... So no, I don't have negotiating powers or.... So no.