Evidence of meeting #13 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
—to say, “What's the point of asking for my opinion if you're just going to release it!”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
I had indicated that the time had elapsed.
Before I go to Madam Block, we also have witnesses today from the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, as listed on our notice. Since this meeting has to end at one o'clock, it would appear we will not be able to hear those witnesses.
You're excused. We will communicate with you about reappearing. Given the break week, my estimate would be that a week from today we may be able to accommodate you for the last hour.
Thank you.
Madam Block, please.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Togneri, for being here today. I recognize, as my colleague has, that having you come here has put you in a difficult situation in terms of the directive from the Interim Information Commissioner and what we have heard from our chair today.
We have been having this ongoing study on access to information. There have been communications and open letters that have talked about the ability for an information commissioner to release information in terms of any kind of investigation that is going on. We know full well when we look at the Access to Information Act and the Lobbying Act that those things cannot be released until an investigation is complete. I recognize that there is an investigation going on, and we know this because the acting Information Commissioner has announced that it is happening.
Today we learned that the member for Mississauga South had a private telephone conversation with the commissioner, in the midst of an ongoing investigation, about that investigation. I'm assuming that when he came forward to the committee today and said she had assured him that no questions we might ask today would hinder her ability to conduct her investigation unimpeded.... I guess I can't imagine what questions he might have known that any of us would ask, to have sort of vetted those through the Information Commissioner to ensure they would not be problematic, either for you or for her. I just think it was highly improper to have a private conversation and then not provide us with any information to indicate she had in fact given our chair that information.
No member has the right to interfere in an ongoing investigation. That has been made very clear in other matters. No member should engage in a private conversation with the commissioner, in the midst of an ongoing investigation, about that investigation. There were no witnesses and we don't know what attempt was made to not influence the investigation. We don't know whether pressure was brought to bear. The Liberals appear to have a hard time recognizing this.
The commissioner is responsible to Parliament collectively. She does not work for any individual member, and no individual member should try to give her direction.
I do have a question for you in regard to perhaps your understanding of the work that you do. I just want to ask this one question: do you believe it is important to be open and transparent in the work that you do?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.
I believe it's absolutely important to be open and transparent with the work that I do.
Again, I have ultimate respect for the process and the committee here, and that's why I'm here. I am.... Again, I was put in a difficult position and what has happened here is that I've broken my confidentiality order to be here today--not to be here, but with how I've testified. And I hope the Information Commissioner's investigation will not have been hindered too much by what has gone on here today. That's all I'd like to say about that.
Liberal
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Good afternoon, Mr. Togneri. Thank you for being here.
When asked by the media, Minister Paradis said he was not aware of what was going on. Can you confirm that?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for your question. What are you referring to exactly?
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I am referring to the acts you are being accused of, the allegations against you. When the media asked Minister Paradis, he said he was not aware of what was going on.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for your question. You would have to ask the minister himself.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I am asking whether you can confirm that the minister was not aware it. He said you did not inform him. My question is clear. Can you confirm what the minister said?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
I did not inform him of.... If you are referring to the ATIP in question, no.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Very well.
Have you read the Access to Information Act before?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
I took training on it when I started, but I have not read it all.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Earlier, you mentioned “delegated authority” and then you said you did not have any delegated authority. Who made the decisions, and who had that authority?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Public servants have the delegated authority. I think they are the officials...
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
No, I cannot give you a name.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Very well.
Who is paying your legal fees? Is it your employer or yourself?
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Mr.....
Mr. Chair, I'd like to read the summons that brought me here today:
Take notice that you are hereby summoned and required to appear in Ottawa and give evidence before the Standing Committee Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics of the House of Commons of Canada on matters relating to its study of Allegations of interference in access to information requests on Thursday May 6, Centre Block....
I don't think these matters are related to the study of allegations of interference in access to information.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
With regard to who is paying the fees of your lawyer, it may be relevant.
Maybe the member could elaborate on the relevance of the question. I think that's what the witness is suggesting. He's not sure that it's relevant, but....
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Actually, I was asking because you felt you had to come here with a lawyer. Since you are here today and, from time to time, you ask your lawyer for advice, I would think you are doing so further to this investigation. That is why I am asking the question.