Evidence of meeting #14 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was togneri.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Togneri, I have to continue with that same line of questioning because it's.... I appreciate Madame Freeman's frustration. Here we have a situation where, for some reason, you felt that this document needed to be recalled and you took the initiative to recall that document. Yet now you say you have no idea what happened to it after you took the initiative to recall that document. Is that correct?
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
That's correct.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
So you felt that it was your job somehow to intercept that document, but you had no interest in what happened to it after you intercepted it?
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
If you'll allow me to explain myself.... Again, I made a mistake and I sent a hurried e-mail quickly after that happened. What happened with the specific ATIP was that it was a specific request, and when I received the request I gave it to someone in my office, who reviewed it, and I was told that they weren't sure what the answer had to do with the request. I asked that and I got an answer. And specifically, I was told that section--I believe it was chapter 11--had to do with the request, out of the entire document--
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes?
11:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
--I think we seem to be rambling through some things. I think Mr. Siksay has precise questions. I think we had better let him satisfy himself on each element rather than you trying to anticipate his questions, okay?
So I'm going to turn it back to Mr. Siksay and maybe he can ask you the first question he wants you to answer.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Mr. Togneri, your answer is raising a number of other questions. You said that you delegated the responsibility for reviewing this document to someone else in your office. Who did you delegate that to?
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
To a policy adviser, Jillian Andrews, and--
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
She is political staff.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay. So more than one political staff person was involved in reviewing this particular ATI request.
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Okay.
You said that you realized you made a mistake and that's why you sought the recall of this document. What was the mistake that you made? How would you define the mistake that you made?
11:20 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Well, my mistake was.... I thought what was going out.... I didn't realize--and I should have known this--that if part of a document is relevant, then the entire document is relevant, and I made the mistake that if section 11 was relevant, then the entire section was relevant. And that's.... You know, I sent those hurried e-mails.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
But, Mr. Togneri, you've told us that you had no responsibility for reviewing the content of documents--only to prepare the minister for a response to what was released. So why were you even concerned about what was in the document other than in terms of it meeting some requirements? Why...? Were you not just working on a response for the minister, some lines for the minister?
11:25 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
I'm not really sure I understand the question....
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
You explained to us that you were involved in recalling the document because you believed that there was more information than was necessary, but is that question not outside of what your responsibilities were, as you've testified earlier?
11:25 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
It is, and that was my mistake.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Well, when I asked specifically what your mistake was, you said that there was more information in it than should have been, but then—
11:25 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Well, that's what I thought. I was wrong. It was quickly explained.... After I had sent this e-mail, it was quickly explained to me that if part of a document is relevant, then the entire document is relevant. That was explained to me. I was fine with that.
It was also explained to me that they can explain this, they can.... They, as in the ATIP officers, can work with the requester to make sure they get exactly what they want. In cases where an ATIP file is voluminous, as it was in this case, they can work with them and say, “Well, we can give you just what you want or we can charge you extra and get the entire document”. I suggested, well, perhaps that can be done; it would save the requester money. I made no directives after that. I made no orders or anything.
11:25 a.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
So I accepted the fact that--