Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[Howard Bernstein]

That's not a problem.

The best way I can answer that is to say that, first of all, within the CBC--and it has taken 75 years to create this--different people have been in charge of different areas, as in any company, and the people who are best at it have learned how to amass funding for themselves and keep funding for themselves and how to work the system to keep money so that they can do whatever they want to do to create television programming. I don't mean for their own personal dollars.

They have done that, and it's sometimes hard for other people within the organization to get at exactly how the money is being used and how it's being spent. Is that the reason they're against freedom of information? It think that is only tangentially. That's only in the sense that someone might find out what they themselves can't find out about the way someone is spending money within their little empire within the CBC.

I don't think the bosses themselves know exactly how the money is being spent on a day-to-day basis.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

The crux of the dispute between CBC and the Information Commissioner is section 68.1. Do you not believe that the Information Commissioner is smart enough and talented enough and knowledgeable enough to make a determination as to whether an information request is or is not covered under section 68.1?

It seems to me that the CBC's argument is that “we know what's covered under section 68.1, nobody else knows what's covered under 68.1, and if we say it's covered, then too bad”. Do you not believe or not that the Information Commissioner is smart enough to figure out and make a determination, in an initial review of an access to information request, whether or not it's covered under section 68.1?

[Howard Bernstein]

I absolutely do believe that the Information Commissioner is smart enough to make those decisions. Frankly, as I think I hinted in my opening statement, I don't think that's the real reason why CBC wants the information withheld.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Do you want to expand on that?

[Howard Bernstein]

As I say, I think it has to do—

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Do you have any theories you would like to share with the committee?

[Howard Bernstein]

I think I've already shared those theories. I think it has to do with the possibility of embarrassment and of information that could be used against them in what they consider an unfair way.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Maybe I can ask a question to Ms. Denton, then.

As has been mentioned, the subsidy that the taxpayers are giving the CBC each year is, I think, around $1 billion per year plus the other things that Mr. Del Mastro talked about. You do believe, do you not, that the CBC, as a public broadcaster, as a company owned by the taxpayers of Canada and being significantly subsidized, should make full, complete disclosure on everything they're doing—how every penny is being spent—so that we parliamentarians and the general public are fully aware of how they're operating as a corporation? You do support that principle of full disclosure, do you not?

[Kady Denton]

I do, with the addendum that the exemption be respected.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You mentioned that you were concerned that there are seven full-time people working in their access to information office now. Do you not think that number would be considerably fewer if the CBC stopped stonewalling requests for access to information?

[Kady Denton]

No, probably not; I would think that the requests for information will remain pretty constant. This is a battle between competitors, and seven.... The number may need to be increased to...I don't know.

It concerns me, in that I find it curious. I find it curious also that the people responsible within CBC for access to information are the president and the board, and these people have all been appointed by the Conservative government. There are some curious things here.

However, we won't meet again. You are beginning what is an important study, and I wish you well on it—you have a month of intense work. May I just say that although this is the issue, it's a coat wrapping up another issue, and that issue is the future of the CBC. You can do away with something, or you can chip away at it on this front and on that front until what's left is not recognizable and is not valued by people, so why bother anyway? That's my worry. That's my concern.

May I ask you please to remember in your reports that the guiding principle has to be that we need a public broadcasting system in Canada. It's what Canada is. If we lose the CBC as we know it, we lose Canada.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

We'll now go to the five-minute round, and we'll start with Ms. Brosseau.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you guys for coming today—it's very important—to answer some of the questions we have.

Mr. Howard Bernstein, we're spending a lot of time on this issue. Do you think the government should spend equal time on opening up other issues, concerning the Department of Foreign Affairs or National Defence?

[Howard Bernstein]

I suppose that's not my decision to make. Do I think it's an important issue in these times and in the future of this country? No, I don't believe it's a very important issue. Even the dollars we're talking about are by government standards not particularly large numbers.

I suppose in some ways it does seem curious—not to mention the fact that the courts are dealing with it anyway. The question becomes, why is the government dealing with it as well?

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Have you ever been to the CBC website under “corporate reports and submissions”? The financial statements are listed on the website from CBC.

[Howard Bernstein]

Yes, I have.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Is it not detailed enough? What's the problem you have when you see it?

[Howard Bernstein]

Let me say this: no, it's not detailed enough, and it never will be. It can't be, not the way the system works. Even the powers that be within the CBC don't know where every dollar is going. Even the people who put those things on the website don't know where the dollars are going.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay.

Kady, you're from Peterborough, and you have Friends of CBC there. Are you aware of any other groups across Canada that are supporting the CBC?

[Kady Denton]

Oh, yes; 80% of Canadians check in to the CBC. We don't live without the CBC. It's fundamental.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

In rural communities, is CBC important also?

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

I'm going to interject here. Although Ms. Denton did include some information outside of access to information in her testimony, I want to caution members to try to keep their focus on the access to information perspective.

Thank you.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

The commissioner's report of 2009-10 said that a large majority of the complaints—more than 80%—against the CBC involved one requester. Do you think the purpose of these complaints was to find out certain information, to try to get a heads-up to benefit the other companies, the public companies?

[Kady Denton]

As I said, I read regularly The Peterborough Examiner—and I assume these same columns go out in Sun Media newspapers throughout Canada—about the costs of the CBC. There's nothing wrong with that. The effect, though, of constant pick, pick, picking is to sow doubt in people's minds as to the value of an institution. That's a concern.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Pierre-Luc, do you have anything?