Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I heard the couple of examples that you cited. We talked about the G-20 security expenses. Frankly, the government was beaten up over it. We came forward. We said where we spent money. It came in well under $300 million, the amount budgeted, and the story went away. There had been so many rumours out there about misspending and abuse, but the Auditor General came in and looked at it and everybody agreed that it was consistent with how we spend money. We may not want to host another G-20. In my opinion, though, I think it's a responsibility if you're going to belong to the G-20. But the bottom line is, once the Auditor General looked at it and said the spending was consistent, the story went away.

You said that you believe the CBC must open its books. That's not an attack on the CBC, is it?

[Howard Bernstein]

I don't believe it is. In the long run, it will be helpful to the CBC. If there is an understanding of where the money's going, how the money is spent, and how it can be spent better, whether those ideas come from inside or outside, it's all to the good. If it results in more money for the important things the CBC does, if it gets other folks off their backs for misspending, I think that can do nothing but help the corporation.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Since we became government, we've invested over a billion dollars a year. We're into our sixth year. There is, of course, other funding the CBC gets. For example, the Canada Media Fund, the Local Programming Improvement Fund, government advertising, and other sources. There is a lot of money going there. The government, as well as opposition parties and all Canadians, wants to know that the money is well spent. It's easy to defend that money if they think it's being well spent.

The reverse is also true. It's very easy to be attacked on it, especially by those Canadians who look at it and ask why they're spending all this money. For some folks, a billion dollars a year is still a lot of money. For some folks, it's pocket change in conversation in Ottawa. But that's a lot of money. Don't you think the government also needs to be able to look at it and determine the value we're getting versus the money being spent?

[Howard Bernstein]

Absolutely. I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I want to add to what you said.

I want to make it clear. The CBC is highly underfunded for what we expect it to do with its mandate. It's one of the worst funded national broadcasters in the world on a per capita basis. It has a job that is much more difficult than that of most countries, because of the size of our country.

What you're saying is absolutely right, but I think it has to be understood within that context.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Right.

It's just hard to make that case when there are folks out there who think CBC executives are living the high life, though perhaps they're not. That might be entirely false, but I have an awful lot of people who come and talk to me about how there is a difference between the lifestyles of the folks at the CBC and the lifestyles of private broadcasters, suggesting that it's much better to be in public broadcasting. That may be entirely false, but as long as information is protected and not released, then that myth can be propagated.

[Howard Bernstein]

I totally agree. If I may, I do want to tell you and all those folks out there who think likewise, that I also teach journalism and that I tell all my students, if they want to make good money for the rest of their lives, not to go into journalism and not to work for the CBC, because there's not a lot of money to be made there.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Very good.

Ms. Denton, thank you for coming.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You've got 12 seconds.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Twelve seconds. That's unfair, Madam Chairman.

I'll have to get back to you. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You're a fast speaker, Mr. Del Mastro. We can do it.

Thanks, Mr. Del Mastro.

Mr. Andrews, you have seven minutes.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Welcome, and thank you very much, witnesses, for coming today.

I think we need to get this back to why we're here today. We're not here to discuss the financial operations of the CBC. The purpose of our study is the access to information requests and the court actions involving the CBC and the Information Commissioner. So I think we need to stay focused on the issue at hand.

Mr. Bernstein and Mrs. Stanton, are you familiar with how many outstanding access to information requests with the Information Commissioner we're talking about here?

[Howard Bernstein]

I don't know the specific numbers. I've heard things like 500, but I don't know what the actual number is.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay, because it's important to know that the whole reason we're here is the number of requests that came in and the speed of the responses.

Are you familiar with what the actual requests are and who they are from?

[Howard Bernstein]

I know where they're coming from but I don't know what the specific requests are.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Where are they coming from?

[Howard Bernstein]

They're basically coming from Quebecor.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Quebecor. Some of them. They're not all coming from--

[Howard Bernstein]

No, but the deluge is from Quebecor.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

That's fair. And we don't know what the requests are. We don't know what information Quebecor is looking for. We don't know if it's financial. We don't know if it's about a journalist. We don't know if it's about something else, do we?

[Howard Bernstein]

No, we don't.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

So we had better be careful about where we speculate they're coming from, don't you think?

[Howard Bernstein]

I can only speak as someone who has worked for several networks in this country, and say that I feel that I can speculate in general. I can't speculate specifically. As someone who has watched Sun News to see what they've been saying about the CBC, I get hints along the way that give an idea of where they're coming from, and why and how they're trying to discredit the CBC.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Let me ask you this then. Quebecor Sun Media, are they open to any such freedom of information?

[Howard Bernstein]

No, they're not.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

They cannot share any of their information.