Evidence of meeting #19 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was site.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Feras Antoon  Chief Executive Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada
David Tassillo  Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada
Corey Urman  Vice-President, Product Management, Video Sharing Platform, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

February 5th, 2021 / 1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As the shadow minister for women and gender equality, I'm disgusted by what I have heard from both of you, Mr. Antoon and Mr. Tassillo, but I'm going to ask my question.

Please try to answer this. Social media platforms all utilize tags and hashtags to categorize content to help make content easier to find. MindGeek websites are no different. Why then is MindGeek blatantly ignoring tags that are used for rape, underage children, with the tag “CP”? For example, one of the videos on your site entitled “Short video of my school ho, young dick, had my bush a trim” used the tags “middle schooler”, “young boy” and “boy”. These are the things you talked about today, how you have a process in place, and yet you're allowing this illegal content to be searchable on your site.

You, as the site operators, have responsibility to protect these vulnerable individuals from exploitation on your platform. You spoke a lot about the process, but it's failing. Tell me about it. How did this video make it to your website?

1:55 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

Thank you for your question. I understand your concerns.

For that specific video, I'd have to actually go back and take a look at it and view it. You bring up a point about tagging systems and how they work across the Internet regardless of the site. In that same negative database of terms that I made reference to, which is in the works, there are over a thousand terms now, and then another couple of thousand sit on top of that, which are [Inaudible--Editor] words that could have either positive or negative intentions, depending on the way they're used. None of those words are available to be used as tags or as categories, and are not allowed within the titles of videos.

A second point you brought up, which I understand could be confusing, or which could “give the wrong message” is probably a better way of saying it, is when you see certain terms such as “teen”. That term has created a lot of controversy on the site. When you're using the English language in its normal way, “teen” is used as for someone 13 to 19 years old. That's the demographic that's put into your head.

In the adult world, when people say “teen”, they're actually referencing those who are 18 to 25 years old, or 18 to 27, something in that range. It's similar to how, when people are having a sports conversation, they will use the word “GOAT”, versus the traditional use of the word of “goat” when you're referencing the animal. To be more specific, we want to make sure that we don't allow these things to be misused, even when we have “teen” as a category, because it is an allowed category in the same way it's allowed on any of the other platforms outside of the Internet. Whether it be on television or Bell ExpressVu and all of these things, there is a category that's called “teen” because it's a well-known category within the space.

We actually label it “Teen (18+)” just to further drive home that if people are looking for this, we don't want it on any part of our site. If someone even does a search on our site looking for “14” or “15”, obviously no results are found.

We're actually launching a project that's coming out I believe this week. My apologies, it's already in place right now with The Lucy Faithful Foundation out of the U.K., whereby we're not only not returning results, but are putting deterrent messages similar to what Google and others have instituted over the last couple of years. I don't have a timeline of when they did, but that was a great thing we learned from our counterparts who are also combatting the same issues that we are.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Jag Sahota Conservative Calgary Skyview, AB

In the brief you submitted to the committee, you said that your business is similar to that of mainstream social media. You also highlighted that your subsidiary, Pornhub, is one of the world's most popular websites. You claim that a MindGeek employee visually inspects each and every piece of content before it is uploaded. You say MindGeek employs 1,800 people. According to your own report, 2.8 hours' worth of content is uploaded every minute to your site, which means over 160 hours are uploaded in one hour. Over the course of each of your 1,800 employees' standard 7.5-hour shifts, 1,260 hours of content are uploaded.

How is it possible, even if every employee was dedicated to content moderation, that they would be able to review 1,260 hours' worth of content?

2 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

I agree that in terms of pure linear math it seems an impossible task to do, or impossible to do efficiently. The way we do it, irrespective of the amount of content, is that the content will not go live unless a human moderator views it. I want to assure the panel of that.

However, the content comes in to different buckets. It comes in from content partners. These are studios that are usually in the U.S. They are producing content professionally, and they include 2257 documentation. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the law, but that's a law that stipulates that content produced in the U.S. has signed documentation, release forms from all of the individuals performing in it, and all of the appropriate IDs. When stuff comes up through that channel, it can be viewed a lot quicker because we know that the appropriate documentation is available from the producer who is uploading the content. When we have stuff that's uploaded through the model program, a lot of times it's solo stuff so it can be flipped through a lot faster.

The compliance team is instructed, essentially, to spend as much time as needed to verify that a piece of content is okay. They are always instructed to err on the side of caution, and we tell them, “If you're at all worried, it doesn't really matter. Just don't ask questions and don't put it up.”

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you.

We're going to turn to Mr. Dong now.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Thank you, Chair.

First of all, I want to thank all of the witnesses for appearing today and giving us some answers—under oath, if I may remind everyone of that. It's an important issue that we're talking about today.

On Monday we heard from a very brave young woman. As a parent, I can't imagine the amount of courage that is driving her to come here in public to shine a light on the operation of your company. Today we're here to find out why. What made her work up the courage to take on a giant like your company?

I would like to start by asking the three gentlemen in front of us today. You're all quite successful. How much do you make, each of you? How much do you make, Mr. Anton, Mr. Tassillo and Mr. Urman?

2 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

Feras Antoon

I'm sorry. Do you want me to tell the panel how much I make?

2 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Yes. What's your salary? What was your income last year?

2 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

Feras Antoon

Obviously this is a very private matter that I would not like to share with the committee. I get paid fairly, like any other CEO of a company.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

I assume that your colleagues will also probably not disclose that number today to the committee.

2 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

We feel it's a confidential number. It is a business that we run and we are very proud of our business. It's a successful business and—

2 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Okay, I appreciate that.

I have limited time, but that's fine.

2 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

I apologize.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

That's okay. I'll ask the chair if we can talk about this later and if we can add this to the list of documents requested.

I also agree with my colleague, MP Erskine-Smith, who commented that he highly doubts that you don't know the number of complaints received in the early years. I respectfully ask the chair to add that to the documents requested as well, since we would like to see those numbers.

2:05 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

I'm sorry, Mr. Dong. We never said we don't have the numbers. I just said I don't have them readily available today.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

If you could submit that to the committee later, that would be great.

2:05 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

In reference to the testimony that was given on Monday, I want to reiterate—

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

I have a few questions I need to go through, so if I may—

2:05 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

Sorry. I was just trying to answer the question. I apologize.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

How much worldwide gross profit did your company make last year, and how much did it make the year prior to that? That's public knowledge.

2:05 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

I don't have exact numbers.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

You don't know how much your company made last year? Seriously?

2:05 p.m.

Chief Operating Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

David Tassillo

I said that I don't have exact numbers, and I don't want to just estimate.

2:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Entreprise MindGeek Canada

Feras Antoon

Mr. Dong, I know how much our company made. This is a private company, and I don't understand the relevance of what a private company makes...has to do with this case.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON

Do you file taxes?