Evidence of meeting #145 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Well, you've probably seen a number of arrests relating to individuals who have espoused radical ideologies and may have been planning attacks—in some cases youths. Examples of that include people who live in an echo chamber online and may have fewer connections outside to temper what they—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Those aren't examples. Those are generalities. To be specific, I mean the Quebec City massacre at the mosque, the Ibrahim Jame mosque in Hamilton, which was firebombed, and the London family that was run down. Would those be specific examples of radicalization?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I don't want to get this wrong. I won't use the name, but I certainly know that some of the arrests that have been made this year have been linked to radicalization online as a primary factor. I don't want to give you misinformation and give you the wrong name associated with that, but I'm happy to report back if that's helpful.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
If you're able to, can you list, in the case of TikTok, the principal national security risks that you identified that led to the Government of Canada's decision to order it to wind up?
December 12th, 2024 / 5:45 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I can't speak to specifics other than to say that we provided a national security assessment that highlighted some national security risks.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay. What are the risks of disclosing to this committee, publicly, some of this information?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Well, for one, there are decision-making privileges in cabinet confidence that we have to respect as part of the government's decision-making. Also, there is a matter before the courts that will have to go through a fair process, and I need to be conscious that this process hasn't yet unfolded. There may be classified information that could reveal sources or techniques or may have been shared with us by our allies, who would not allow us to describe it publicly.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Obviously, under the CSIS Act, you have a duty of candour to the courts. If in the process of the civil case you're asked these questions, you'll be forced to disclose that. Is that correct?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I can't offer specific legal advice. I know there are processes to protect information in various legal proceedings in Canada, which may be applicable in this case. I have not done a detailed review of how this case might unfold and what information might come to light.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
Thank you, Mr. Rogers.
That concludes our first round. I'm sure there will be lots of eyes on this court case.
Mr. Barrett, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
With respect to the decision that was taken under the Investment Canada Act, what alternatives or other options are available other than a complete shutdown of an entity here in Canada?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Some of those questions may be better directed to ISED, which applies most of the act. Again, our input is limited to providing a national security assessment.
That said, I understand there are other options available, including applying mitigation mechanisms, but I wouldn't want to speak about that on their behalf.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Is there a type of mitigation example you could offer?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
None comes to mind right away. I apologize, but that's not CSIS's area of expertise with the act.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
There's a national security risk so great that, under the Investment Canada Act, the headquarters of this entity has been ordered to shut down in Canada, yet Canadians are not restricted in their use of it. What are Canadians to make of this? The risk is so great that the government ordered the shutdown of this entity but said, “Please feel free to continue to use the app.” What's the message Canadians should take away from that?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
From CSIS's perspective, we've been clear, as I have been now, about the risks of the app itself.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Can you be clear? Should Canadians continue to use TikTok?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
We have said, and I will say now, that there are national security concerns with the use of TikTok in general, including with the aggregate amount of data and the ability of the Chinese government to make use of the platform in ways that are contrary to the interests of Canada.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Are you saying that Canadians should use it or should not use it?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I'm saying that the decision of a government to provide such a recommendation to Canadians, or make a decision for them, is best not made by CSIS.
CSIS can provide a national security assessment, but it's very important that other factors be brought into those decisions. The decision on TikTok Canada is very distinct from the decision on TikTok in general, because there are very different factors at play.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
As to the distinct question of whether individual Canadians.... I'm not talking about a ban. I'm just talking about advice. You're the director of the leading organization in Canada's intelligence apparatus. You are at the forefront of this and, though new in your role, you were appointed because of your qualifications and extensive experience in the intelligence community in Canada.
Should Canadians continue to use TikTok? I'm not asking whether the government should ban it for Canadians. I'm asking if, as the head of CSIS, you believe it's wise for individual Canadians to use it.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I think there's a very big distinction between an individual's choice to use something and the aggregate effect on Canadian national security.
I can give you a personal example. When I was young, I did not expect to be the director of CSIS. At the time, I may have looked at the information available to me and made a decision to continue to use TikTok because I wouldn't have thought I'd care, even if China had my information. I now care because I'm the director of CSIS.
My perspective is that individuals need to consider their own risks. That is an important factor in making a determination. At this stage, I can't speak for government, but I can say there are risks that I hope Canadians consider when they personally decide to use TikTok.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You talked about the aggregation of data—the information, pictures, geolocation, patterns and habits of individual Canadians. That information is being taken, potentially used by the Communist dictatorship in Beijing and aggregated.
I have just about a minute left.
With respect to individual users, what are the risks to younger Canadians—the young Mr. Rogerses and future directors of CSIS—in 50 seconds, sir?
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
If the concern is that the Chinese government may access data, they have been seen, as we know, engaging in foreign interference, in acts of transnational repression and in other things contrary to the individual and collective interests of Canada. An individual making use of TikTok now would have to be aware that their data may be subject to that regime.
If you are someone who is vocally counter to the Government of China or the Chinese Communist Party, you may have particular concerns immediately. If you are someone who is not in that situation, you may eventually have those concerns, and you'll have to take into account as an individual whether you want to take that risk.