Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay.

You have about three minutes and 20 seconds left.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll take those three minutes. Thank you very much.

I'll pick up on the notion that this government ran on being open by default. In fact, in 2018, it implemented a Ministry of Digital Government. For three years, it had a Ministry of Digital Government, which it then canned unceremoniously in 2021. In my opinion, there is a very secretive culture of obscuring the facts from the general public and the House of Commons.

As a member of Parliament, when I hear someone say they're either unwilling to give us notes—you talked about briefing notes, and I would reference my interaction with the Deputy Prime Minister, who outright refused to give basic briefing notes, which should have been made available to the committee—or they're not even accessing it—which was the Minister of Public Safety, Mr. Bill Blair at the time.... The right to access cannot exist without actual records.

In your opinion, would departments' and institutions' failure to keep adequate records infringe on the rights of Canadians to access information?

[Caroline Maynard]

You're touching on another recommendation I made in my submission, which is to legislate the duty to document. Without records, as you just mentioned, there's no access.

Right now we have a policy that is sometimes followed and sometimes not followed. It's becoming more and more difficult to know what is being discussed and what is being decided with a hybrid model of work. People are working from home. People are on Teams. They're texting. This has always been a concern for all commissioners around Canada. We drew up a resolution in 2016 on that subject. B.C. is the only province that has a legislative duty to document.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I do have a couple more questions in my limited time.

I think about the secret work of COINTELPRO, which involved the infiltration of civil rights movements. Documents that were released by the American government decades ago are still being withheld by the Canadian government.

Are the differences between that country and Canada simply legislative, or is there a difference in the culture and education of those working in governments and these related institutions?

[Caroline Maynard]

There's definitely a difference between the United States and Canada in terms of declassification of documents. They have a program. Every 20 years, documents that are secret or top secret go through a review. If they are declassified, they are a lot easier to—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Would your recommendation be that we do that?

[Caroline Maynard]

We have a recommendation as well that the Government of Canada should have a program, whether it's 15 years, 20 years or 50 years. Pick a number. Right now we have none, so—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This is the last question.

On the topic of this Ministry of Digital Government, during the very short and, to me, bizarre life of which this government purported to be open to access to government, to be an open government, did you see any improvements, material improvements or, in your opinion, have things become worse since they unceremoniously disbanded and abandoned that mandate within the government?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Could you give us a very brief answer, please?

[Caroline Maynard]

I haven't seen any impact specifically with respect to the Ministry of Digital Government.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So for three years it really wasn't doing anything anyway.

[Caroline Maynard]

There are more demands than ever.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Kurek, you have five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Commissioner, for joining us here today to emphasize the importance of access to information as being fundamental to democracy, freedom and accountable government.

I will start with the duty to document. Certainly I've seen some concerns about missing information and loopholes that were obviously...or getting access to information requests for phone calls, sticky notes, voice mail messages or recordings. Is that what you're referring to when it comes to the idea of the duty to document?

[Caroline Maynard]

What I'm referring to is making sure that after a meeting, for example, minutes are taken and saved properly so they are easy to retrieve and find. Right now we are in an environment of electronic documents and meetings over Teams. If nobody is taking the time to properly document what's happening, the decisions that are being made, and putting that in a place where the next analyst coming after you will find it, the right to access doesn't exist because there are no records.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

Regarding analysts, I'm curious whether you have numbers as to how many ATIP officers are working at home versus back in the office.

[Caroline Maynard]

I don't know, because institutions have their own rules right now. I believe it's pretty much hybrid everywhere in government. I don't know.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Would that information be helpful for your office to be able to determine efficiencies and accountability?

[Caroline Maynard]

At the beginning of COVID, it was really difficult to work and to do investigations, because most analysts didn't have access to their servers or to any information. Now we're saying that COVID is not an excuse anymore. You should have access to your server, to documents, and the OPI should be able to give you the information.

It's rarely the analyst's fault when something is late. It's usually the public servant who has the document in his office and doesn't give it much time.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Do you have any numbers regarding the number of contractors versus analysts who are employed by the government on a full-time basis? Do you have any information on that?

[Caroline Maynard]

No. The TBS would maybe have that information, but that's not something that we investigate.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It would be good to know the cost. I know there are hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly millions of dollars, for contractors who are being paid to fulfill access to information requests, and it would be good to know. That's certainly a question for TBS.

I have a couple more questions. With regard to whistle-blowers, I believe I asked you this question when you appeared before the committee before. I'm hoping to give you a brief opportunity to talk about the need for whistle-blower protections within Canada.

[Caroline Maynard]

I always believe in that, but it's totally not within my jurisdiction. If they are protected somehow.... Definitely we need protection, but it's not within access to information per se.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm curious whether you've ever noted a difference in terms of the length of time to give a response with different ATIP filers, depending on who files the ATIP. For example, if it is a journalist versus an MP versus a member of the public versus another government organization, have you ever noticed any difference in the timelines for those responses?