Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right.

With that, for the final two we have Mr. Williams followed by Ms. Khalid. Then we'll have one last chance and a little bit of housekeeping. We should be off a little after six o'clock.

Go ahead, Mr. Williams.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to follow up on my colleagues' questions.

What recommendations can you make...or how do you ensure that your position is never compromised by being politicized?

[Caroline Maynard]

I have to say that I feel very confident that my office is very independent of the government. We have issued investigations against all departments, including PCO, which is under the purview of the Prime Minister. The only part that is not clean, in my view, is the funding. We have not been able to obtain an independent process under which we can get appropriate funding.

I say “we” because a lot of agents of Parliament, such as the Auditor General, are in the same boat as me. Right now, if we want more funding, we have to go through Treasury Board and Finance, two departments that we investigate on a daily basis, so—

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

How would you correct that? What recommendation would you make?

[Caroline Maynard]

I think there was a recommendation at one point for an independent parliamentary committee to review funding requests from agents of Parliament. We report to Parliament, so I think that would be the appropriate venue.

You can look at the integrity commissioner. He has a specific independent process under which he can obtain some funding. The Canada elections chief also has his own process. So it's feasible. It would render my office completely independent from our government, at that point.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay. That's a good recommendation.

You discussed some innovation—I'm really big on innovation—and AI being used in IRCC. Are there other countries doing more innovation? Are there other models that we can look to in Canada to better the process to be able to catch things up?

[Caroline Maynard]

Well, those innovations are mainly privacy-related issues, but one thing I find.... I went to visit the U.K. commissioner and the Scottish commissioner, and they have a monitoring capacity on institutions directly instead of having the administration done by a government institution like TBS. The reporting of the institutions goes directly to the commissioner. When you see after three months that somebody is struggling, that an institution is struggling with requests, the commissioner has the authority to intervene.

I think those types of jurisdictions are interesting, because you don't wait for the complaint; you can have proactive action and an outreach kind of jurisdiction. That authority would be nice.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Are there other countries that do that?

[Caroline Maynard]

I'm sure there are, but everybody has a different act and a different type of jurisdiction. There are ombudsmen and there are commissioners. We try to keep up with what's going on, but it's really the institutions that have to invest in those innovations and look at what can help them. Technology is always a solution, for sure.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

You talked before about proactive disclosure. Are other governments using any technology to do that? You talked about the municipal level. I came from that level. Sometimes they're not proactive, either.

What's the best recommendation you can make for that, based on other countries or on what you think we need to be implementing?

[Caroline Maynard]

I think that is definitely something that's internationally equal. Everybody is pushing their government to do more proactive disclosure. We all agree that more information given, without us having to go through the access system, which is already overwhelmed, is key.

One issue we have in Canada.... Well, it's not an issue. We're privileged, but we have to provide the information in two languages, so it adds some challenges. A lot of other countries don't have that to deal with, including the United States, which is providing a lot of information proactively.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Mr. Chair, am I out of time? I have another question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

You have half a minute, if you'd like.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

I'll go quickly, then.

At your last appearance, you talked about the departments with the worst ATIP records right now: IRCC, CBSA, RCMP, CRA and PCO. Have you spoken to any of these institutions since, and are you encouraged by their progress?

[Caroline Maynard]

I am very encouraged by IRCC. They are doing an action plan in response to the systemic investigation. The results are not there, but I think they're coming. We will see some improvement. Unfortunately, we're not seeing it now, but it's something.

I had to do a systemic investigation of Library and Archives, because we were not seeing any improvement at all. Luckily, that led to them obtaining substantial help, financially. I'm looking forward to seeing the action plan and how it will impact their unit, as well.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

For the last round within the normal schedule of rounds—and I said I'd do one last check afterwards—Ms. Khalid has the last five minutes.

Go ahead.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Maynard, for taking the time today to answer our very extensive questions.

I have two questions.

First and foremost, have you felt that the addition of a complaint button on your website and through social media has been a good-news story, with impact on how your office operates? Has that led to an increase in the number of ATIPs your office receives?

[Caroline Maynard]

Do you mean the online complaint form?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Yes.

[Caroline Maynard]

I think it has helped to reduce the number of complaints. As you go through it, our website and the complaint form provide some information on whether or not you're too late, or whether it's the appropriate place to put in a complaint. The online complaint form has opened up the accessibility, but we use it as a tool, as well, to educate and properly inform our complainants about the rules with respect to the complaint system.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

With respect to malicious ATIPs, do you find that's a reality? Do you find that people put in ATIP requests asking for an obscene number of documents, or because of political ideologies or motives people may have, or for any other gains? How does that impact your office?

[Caroline Maynard]

Well, it has more impact, I think, on the institutions themselves, which have to deal with those types of requests, and yes, they are real. We all have that one requester or two requesters who, for some reason, have a chip on their shoulder, and they decide to overwhelm with a number of requests or a request that is frivolous.

Unfortunately, before 2019, there was no way to deal with those types of requests—not requesters, but requests. Now that we do have the authority not to respond to those, with my authorization, I think it will help institutions, hopefully, because one of those unreasonable requests can have a huge impact on the operation of an ATIP unit or the operation of an institution.

We're hoping that with time, and with some jurisprudence, because I'm publishing those decisions as well.... I have to be careful, because under the act right now, which is another recommendation, by the way.... I want to publish more of those cases, but under the act, I can only publish reports on investigations. Those types of decisions are not supposed to be published, so what I do is summarize them so that we don't give the institution's name or too much of the facts, but at least we give some guidelines about what types of cases we see that are frivolous and in bad faith, and other cases where you're not there, at the threshold, so that institutions better understand those rules.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

How much of a drain is that on your resources in any given year, when you receive vexatious, malicious or frivolous ATIPs?

[Caroline Maynard]

It has a huge impact. My office has only three people dealing with our own access requests. Last year, we received a request that ended up with 33,000 pages. We ourselves had to request an extension, because we are subject to the act as well. We don't want to say “no” to access requests, but sometimes we are realizing that it's difficult to negotiate or to try to understand what is behind the request.

I am sure that institutions, as I said, all have their one or two or three requesters who are difficult or who are asking for information where, at the end of the day, you wonder, “What are you going to do with those 22 million pages?”