Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 39 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022, and therefore members can attend in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

We're running two panels today. We're having to start late due to votes. I will probably run this panel a little longer than the second one just because we have more witnesses in the first one. I'll probably be pretty merciless on the clock. We'll get through two full rounds and opening statements on the first hour and then we will try to transition as quickly as possible to the second panel.

I would like to welcome our witnesses now for the first hour.

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Françoys Bernier, Stéphan Déry, Lorenzo Ieraci, Teresa Maioni and Lyne Roy. We also have, from the Canada Border Services Agency, Scott Millar, Jonathan Moor and Dan Proulx.

I hope that I have identified all of our witnesses today. With that, I would like to get started.

Mr. Déry, the floor is yours for up to five minutes.

[Stéphan Déry, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Services, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. Thank you for inviting Public Services and Procurement Canada to appear before you today to discuss the topic of the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle border crossing.

I'm joined today by Françoys Bernier, director general for the Quebec region, and Lorenzo Ieraci, assistant deputy minister, policy, planning and communications branch. At the request of the committee, also present today are Lyne Roy, senior director of our access to information and privacy team, and Teresa Maioni, also of our access to information and privacy team.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that the land on which we gather is the traditional land and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, procures goods and services on behalf of departments and agencies throughout government. Each year, the department buys some $22 billion worth of goods and services, including construction, from nearly 10,000 suppliers. In addition to this and other roles, the department manages one of the largest and most diverse portfolios of real estate in the country. We are the Government of Canada's real estate expert.

The Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, is responsible for providing integrated services that support national security and public safety priorities and facilitate the flow of persons and goods at federal border crossings.

As this committee is aware, since the summer of 2017, a very high number of asylum seekers have arrived at the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle crossing. This has resulted in the need for the CBSA, along with its partners the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and Immigration, Refugee and Citizenship Canada, to increase their infrastructure to process claims and provide services to those seeking asylum.

On top of this, the COVID-19 pandemic added increased pressure on infrastructure and service delivery. On behalf of the CBSA and IRCC, to date PSPC has awarded some 30 contracts for goods and services to manage an increase in asylum seekers at the crossing. All contracts related to the crossing have been publicly disclosed. The majority of these contracts were competitively awarded for an approximate total value of $108,560,000.

The department has also negotiated several land and service lease agreements in the immediate vicinity of the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle port of entry, as required by CBSA and IRCC. These lease agreements are used for a range of activities, including a triage centre, dorms, office space and parking, as well as for the hotel adjacent to the border crossing. The approximate total value of these land and service leases is approximately $28 million.

The location and requirement for leases were determined by our clients, CBSA and IRCC, to meet their operational requirements for facilities close to the border to deal with the influx of asylum seekers. All leases for the program in Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle have been disclosed. However, in accordance with market practices, the specific value of the leases has not been disclosed, given the commercially sensitive nature of this information.

Nonetheless, we have noted the value of the leases at $28 million. We have provided this committee, through the clerk, with the document that breaks down the value of the leases by client. This information also breaks down the value of the leases as well as the lease improvements that were made to the property at the request of our client.

In supporting our colleagues at CBSA and IRCC, we worked to meet their operational requirements at the time when the number of asylum seekers was increasing. In this regard, we worked closely with the CBSA, IRCC, and other federal partners to find space in the immediate vicinity of the border crossing and to complete the necessary lease improvements to ensure that the needs of our client departments—in this case, CBSA and IRCC—were met so that they could properly serve and protect Canadians.

Through our activities, we strive to meet our clients' operational requirements while ensuring value for money for Canadian taxpayers. We also strive to undertake our activity in a fair and transparent manner, while ensuring we meet obligations under the Access to Information Act and Privacy Act.

Public Services and Procurement Canada will continue to work with federal partners to support their needs in relation to the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle border crossing.

My colleagues and I will be pleased to answer your questions regarding our support to federal partners.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Now we'll have an opening statement from the Canada Border Services Agency.

I'm not certain which official is going to deliver that statement, but whoever wishes to do so may start now. You have up to five minutes.

[Jonathan Moor, Vice-President, Finance and Corporate Management Branch, Canada Border Services Agency]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

I'm very pleased to speak to you today and provide some information on the roles and responsibilities of the Canada Border Services Agency with regard to refugee asylum seekers and to discuss more specifically the agency's operations at the Roxham Road crossing.

My name is Jonathan Moor. I am the vice-president of the finance and corporate management branch and the CBSA's chief financial officer. I am joined today by my colleagues Scott Millar, vice-president of the strategic policy branch, and Dan Proulx, executive director of information sharing, access to information and the chief privacy office.

As you are aware, the number of refugee asylum claimants has grown significantly in recent years. The CBSA has needed to mobilize resources from across Canada to help address these increases, in particular since 2017 with the arrival of large numbers of claimants at Roxham Road.

Border security and integrity is a shared mandate between the CBSA and the RCMP. The CBSA is responsible for enforcing legislation at designated ports of entry. The RCMP is responsible for enforcing the law between those ports of entry. It is important to note that the CBSA encourages all refugee asylum claimants to apply to enter to Canada at a designated port of entry.

However, the number of between-the-ports arrivals, sometimes referred to as “irregular arrivals”, has continued to increase. Since January 1, 2022, the CBSA has already processed over 26,500 irregular arrivals in Quebec, mostly at the Roxham Road crossing.

Those who enter in between designated ports of entry—in this case, at Roxham Road—are intercepted by the RCMP and brought to the nearest CBSA port of entry, which is at Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle. Then they are processed by CBSA officers and they make a claim for asylum. The role of the CBSA is to determine the admissibility of a person and the eligibility of the claim under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

All refugee claimants, whether they arrive at a designated port of entry or between the ports of entry, undergo a health and security screening. The security screening is a crucial part of the overall assessment of whether a person is admissible to Canada. The process ensures that anyone who wants to come to Canada has not committed serious crimes and does not pose a health or safety risk to Canadians. We have the appropriate resources in place to ensure that no one leaves the port of entry until the security screening has been completed.

Our border services officers work closely with other law enforcement agencies, both nationally and internationally, to help identify and investigate persons who may be inadmissible to Canada. In some cases, officers may arrest, detain and remove persons who are inadmissible. Since 2017, there have been over 18,800 irregular arrivals in Quebec, and so the numbers were too high to process at the agency's existing port of entry facilities. Therefore, to ensure proper screening and to accommodate the large number of refugee claimants at Roxham Road, it was necessary for the CBSA to invest in additional processing and accommodation infrastructure in partnership with our colleagues at PSPC.

Since 2017 this infrastructure has been provided through a number of temporary structures, mainly by using mobile trailers for both accommodation and processing facilities. The leases on these mobile facilities are due to expire at the end of the year, so a decision was taken to consolidate the operations into two existing buildings to house all the functions of the regional processing centre.

In October 2021, the agency announced a contract to retrofit these buildings situated at the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle port of entry. The work is due to be completed shortly and will help to ensure adequate waiting space and humanitarian assistance while refugee asylum claimants are being processed at the border. Once the CBSA has completed its processing, the claimants' longer-term accommodation requirements fall under the responsibility of the IRCC and the provinces.

The CBSA is committed to treating all people who are seeking asylum in Canada with compassion and ensuring they are afforded a due and fair process under the law. We will also continue to ensure the security and the safety of all Canadians by following public health guidelines at the border.

I hope this information has been helpful to you. I will now make myself and my colleagues available to answer any of your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

We'll begin with the six-minute rounds.

We'll go first to Monsieur Paul-Hus. You have up to six minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I will be brief.

On your screen, you should see the map of the land that I am holding here. I am showing it to you so that no one will get mixed up. You can see where the Roxham Road port of entry is, where migrants seeking asylum arrive and are then driven to the camp set up beside the official Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle border crossing.

In the camp, there are sites, trailers, infrastructure, and Mr. Guay's hotel that we are familiar with. I have been on the land at least three times, on both the American and Canadian sides, so I understand quite well how it works. Mr. Guay's land is located right beside the official Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle border crossing, so it is easy for everyone to install the facilities and accommodate asylum seekers.

There is a problem, however. I wonder how a contract can be negotiated when the landowner can ask for any price he likes. It is hard to understand the rules for negotiating the contract in question. How can a fair and equitable price be established when we are told there is no other location available?

If we look at the map, though, we can see that there is other land where certain things could have been installed, like trailers or other facilities, for less money.

First, how can the price asked be explained?

Second, you say there is sensitive information concerning this land, information that cannot be explained publicly. What is it about that information that is so sensitive?

[Stéphan Déry]

That is a very good question.

For either buildings or land, Treasury Board policy always requires that they be leased at a price that corresponds to the market value. We therefore have an entire team that assesses the market value in a particular location. Then we negotiate, particularly when there is a single owner or there is not a lot of space.

Some of our commercial leases are negotiated by mutual agreement, directly with the owners. It is commonly the case that for the kind of space required and the market where the desired buildings are located, there are not enough owners and so there is no competition. However, we always produce a market analysis report and retain third parties in the private sector to determine the market value.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand that you negotiate on a mutual agreement basis. However, I would like you to confirm one thing. According to my information, the St‑Bernard hotel with which we are all familiar, adjacent to the border crossing, has been leased full-time by the Government of Canada since 2017.

I am told that from 2017 to 2020, it cost $15 million, or about $5 million per year, to rent the rooms. I imagine it is still being leased today. Is that correct?

As well, has the hotel been used? When I visited, there were never any refugees there. There were 500 spaces in the trailers being used as dormitories. In the summer, the government had even set up tents for 3,000 people that were never used.

Has the hotel ever been used, and is the price I cited correct?

[Stéphan Déry]

I'm going to turn the question over to Mr. Bernier, who works on this as director general for the Quebec region.

[Françoys Bernier, Acting Regional Director General, Quebec Region, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

I am going to come back to your first question, on how we made sure the price paid for the location in Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle was reasonable. The department has its own leasing and property management agents, who do an initial review of the file.

In this specific case, our clients had presented a unique need: to be all together near the border crossing. As you said, Mr. Guay owns a majority of the land, and he was certainly the only one prepared to support our clients in 2017, when this situation started. Our experts therefore negotiated a lease by mutual agreement, as in a majority of real estate lease cases across Canada.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Has it actually cost the Government of Canada $5 million per year to lease the hotel, which has been empty for five years?

Can you confirm that the hotel has not been used since the start?

[Françoys Bernier]

I do not have the exact value of the lease with the hotel. On the question of use, the hotel was in use the last time I was on site, a few weeks ago. However, I cannot tell you what the situation was for the entire term of the lease.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

To help us in our work, we would like to get a report on the use of the hotel, which was not used for anything in the first years.

There is also the land where the trailers we all know about were installed, with the reception centre, the cafeteria, and everything else. How much is the government paying for all that?

[Françoys Bernier]

As my colleague said, the leases signed with Mr. Guay total $28.13 million. Of that amount, $13.4 million comes from the Canada Border Services Agency for the land and the adjacent land.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Do you really think those amounts are justified for a simple lease of land? The government did not buy the land, it just leased it. We are talking about millions of dollars, which is a lot of money for land that is not being used for much.

[Françoys Bernier]

That money is not just for the lease, it also covers the leasehold improvements my colleague spoke of in English, that is, the improvements required in order to meet our client's operational needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Now we go to Mr. Fergus for up to six minutes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to thank our witnesses, both those who are with us in person and those who are appearing virtually.

I would like to thank you for the work you are doing as public servants. I know your work is difficult because of the speed with which the situation changes, but you are doing it well. It is important that Canadians be satisfied of that.

Mr. Déry and Mr. Bernier, you talked about the market value of the land leased from Mr. Guay. Without disclosing details of a commercial nature, did your consultants tell you that the costs of leasing that were negotiated corresponded completely to the market value of the land?

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you for the question.

As my colleague said, we offer an optional service. Our clients tell us their needs, we analyze them, and we look at what is offered on the market. We then ask experts in the department and outside experts to look at all the options. In this case, it was Mr. Guay's properties, near Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle, that met the client's requirements, so we negotiated with him on a mutual agreement basis.

For the Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle site, given the time frame, the location of the infrastructure and the leasehold improvements that had to be made, in particular the connection to the electrical grid and the construction of dormitories, for which Mr. Guay and his companies put in bids, we are satisfied that we got a reasonable price and got Canadians value for their money.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

I have only three minutes left and I am going to move on to another question right away.

Canada has an independent, professional public service. Did the office of the then minister play a role in awarding this contract or in the negotiations to determine the market value of the land?

[Stéphan Déry]

I am going to let you answer, Mr. Bernier, because you were working there in 2017.

[Françoys Bernier]

To my knowledge, there was no interference by any office with the members of our department's team to have the location chosen be the one we are talking about.

Our experts took into account the needs of our colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in submitting the proposal to them that would meet their needs as best possible and that offered Canadians the best value for their money.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I am going to dig a little deeper.

I imagine there is a threshold at which a contract has to receive ministerial approval. With respect to leases and to rental and services contracts, was this $28 million over that threshold, and what is that threshold?

[Françoys Bernier]

No. The amounts spent did not reach that threshold, far from it.

My colleague can tell you the exact threshold above which the minister's approval is needed in connection with a lease.

[Stéphan Déry]

For leases and leasehold improvements, the threshold is $36 million. It is therefore not necessary to get the approval of the minister or her office.