Information & Ethics Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me first, again, with this panel thank the witnesses for their bravery and activism and work in fighting both for your community and for the rights of the Chinese diaspora in Canada and around the world. I appreciate that you are involved in this conversation.

Mr. Chu, in your opening statement you talked about the Prime Minister's reaction and that it seemed to “trivialize”—I think is was the word that you used—the seriousness of the issue.

I understand that you have written the Prime Minister outlining some of your concerns about the communist dictatorship and Beijing's interference in Canada.

I'd like to give you about a minute, if you could, to expand on what you wrote to the Prime Minister.

[Bill Chu]

I think it's not so much what I wrote, but our group actually wrote an open letter. Essentially, it's trying to underline the fact that so much has been happening, right in our community, and we are not seeing the appropriate responses. We urge the government to focus on simple things like the Chinese language media and what they are doing within the community.

I can't recall exactly the words we said, but essentially it's that under the cover of another language they can get away with a different version of reality. That's what we are facing as a community and that's also been causing fear among so many people because once you have a government, which is a one-party government and only has one focus, then we are not.... We are the only community that's really exposed to that kind of brainwashing, almost. In other words, the kinds of narratives and philosophy, ideology, are different from what the average Canadian is exposed to and that's a very oppressive feeling.

We don't have diversity in terms of our news commentating. It is getting narrower and narrower. It's a shrinking kind of freedom that we're having in that sense.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you for that.

Just to clarify, for that open letter that you sent to the Prime Minister and the government, did you receive a response?

[Bill Chu]

Not that we can recall.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you for that.

You mentioned something that I found really concerning and it's that the communist dictatorship in Beijing is exploiting the Chinese diaspora and, in particular, the history—and in many cases the rich history—that makes up much of Canada.

I'd like to give you an opportunity to expand a little bit on that. You had mentioned an organization in Vancouver. How does the CCP exploit the Chinese diaspora? You'd mentioned language newspapers and news sources and heritage. In about the 50 seconds that I have left, could you expand on that a little bit?

[Bill Chu]

First of all, the Chinese community underwent a long history of discrimination in Canada until the 1960s and 1970s. Only then was all of that legislation removed. The CCP is trying to exploit that history, in order to remind most Chinese Canadians they need the motherland to protect them; that's almost their way of expressing it. They are trying to combine it with the current situation—the tension between east and west—to suggest that all of this is China-bullying. They use the word “racism” as an excuse to deflect any criticisms launched against the CCP.

Those are the ways in which they use history to try to pull at the heartstrings of so many Chinese Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Chu.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here, joining us and trying to be part of the solution.

I'm trying to determine the impact of multimedia messages and what it means to participate in our electoral process.

I live in Richmond, British Columbia. It's probably one of the most diverse cities in all of Canada. In fact, the United Nations recognized a five-kilometre stretch in the city called the “Highway to Heaven.” We have over 28 different faith-based organizations situated side by side. I've lived there my whole life.

I've tried to engage with communities. One community stands out. I know Ms. Wong mentioned the fear, earlier—everybody has. We often try to engage the Chinese community. If you're knocking on their door, they're not opening it. There's a lack of registering and giving out personal information and those kinds of things.

If we look at messages they're receiving on social media platforms, how can our security services distinguish between materials written in Cantonese or Mandarin that originate from a government source in China and those written by Chinese Canadians here in Canada?

Could Ms. Wong answer, please?

[Cherie Wong]

I can point folks to our report, “In Plain Sight”, particularly the “Information and Narrative Discursion Warfare” section. While the CCP uses their foremost state platforms on WeChat or Weibo to talk about their ideology and narratives, those narratives are also repeated by media outlets that have friendly relationships with the CCP. We see that through training camps, where Beijing hosts ethnic Chinese-language media from all around the world. They talk about how to tell a good China story. While these ethnic Chinese-language media aren't exactly state outlets, they are repeating state narratives. These are the types of grey areas and nuances we have to navigate and learn how to counter.

Another aspect is the use of influencers and key social media opinion leaders to tell China's story. While these are individuals who are not state-affiliated, their narratives parrot the state's narrative points. When we read this coverage and these types of posts, it's clear to us, in the community, that they're parroting exactly what the state would have said. It would be a lot more difficult—

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I'm going to—

[Cherie Wong]

—for people who don't have digital literacy training or background knowledge to identify these as state narratives.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

If we're comparing—

[Cherie Wong]

I think my colleague, Ms. Lau, would actually have a lot to add on this.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Yes, maybe Ms. Lau can join in and just give us a comparison of, say, domestic misinformation or disinformation, even in local Canadian content or American content.

[Ai-Men Lau]

I just want to also point out, when we talk about the interconnected facets of foreign interference, Cherie had brought up the point that a lot of the underfunding of these communities also contributes to these problems. For example, for media, a lot of the incentive to reproduce party lines is due to business deals being opened up to the China market. There are levers there that would also...for example, the difference between different social media platforms in China and how they interact with overseas media. That's something to look into, certainly.

I can say that in observing Chinese language media, there are not a lot of resources being funded for ethnic reporters. A lot of these companies are marketing companies instead. There's no real, I would say, original reporting being done in Chinese language media that is being reproduced.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

That's the time, Mr. Bains.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chu, in a few words, do you think the Canadian government understands China well?

[Bill Chu]

Simply by looking at their responses to so many infiltrations and interferences that happen, I don't think they are aware of the fact that China is using a lot of government-organized but non-governmental organizations, both locally and overseas. Some even have totally apparently harmless names, for example, the Chinese Students and Scholars Association. Those kinds of global organizations are literally controlling so many university student bodies in Canada and elsewhere.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chu. I apologize, but I don't have much time to speak.

Ms. Wong, I'll ask you the same question: do you think the Canadian government understands China well?

[Cherie Wong]

Without people with cultural and linguistic expertise in making these decisions, no, we do not have the capacity to truly understand Beijing or the leadership right now.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Ms. Wong, do you believe that a public and independent inquiry into Canada-China relations and all the interference that we currently see would be a good thing?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We may have lost Ms. Wong here. I'll stop your time, Mr. Villemure. I see her screen has been frozen.

Ms. Wong, are you back?

[Cherie Wong]

I apologize. I believe I'm having some Internet issues, but if you can hear me, I can provide an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think you referenced that in your opening statement, did you not?